AIBU to keep punishing my 6 year old

[Arrowfanatic]

My daughter is 6, and she still wets herself daily.

She will sit on the sofa and just wee herself, she will sit at school and just wee the carpet. She wees her bed constantly.

This has been an almost daily occurrence since we started potty training when she was almost 3.

She has two younger siblings who are totally dry. She is ruining her bed, we have to buy new bedding constantly as the smell just stops washing out. She refuses pyjama pants, says she's not a baby. When she wees herself in the day time she says she just didn't want to stop what she was doing

It's been 4 years, you name it I've tried it when it comes to solving this. We even see a consultant at the hospital for it, there is no physical problem that may be causing this.

I'm ashamed to say after she wet the duvet we got her yesterday that I told her to go and find somewhere else to live; I'm not proud of it but unless you've been dealing with what I have every day for 4 years and the endless attempts to get it resolved you just can't understand.

I told her today she will be going to bed every day after dinner this week and won't be allowed to go to her after school club.

If I thought she had no control it would be different but she can stay dry when she wants. She'll stay with grandparents in their house and be totally dry. She can be out with us all day and say she needs a wee and hold it till we find one. So its pure lazy behaviour that causes this.

AIBU with punishing though? I honestly don't know what else I can do. I've tried EVERYTHING and believe me when I say everything I mean it. I've seen health visitors, incontinence nurses, reward charts, ignoring, praising, getting her to wash her own stuff, taking away toys, incentives, bribes, shouting, crying, begging, helping me potty training her siblings, explaining that wetting herself is what causes her never ending soreness down "there", I've had family involved to help, the hospital, teachers, we've done stickers, stars. Over 4 years I don't now know where to turn.

mistigri but an intelligent girl who knows weeing at school isn't normal would surely rather by dry than not also?

If people are inclined to bully over a physical or mental difference I very strongly feel the bullies should be addressed rather than the individual concerned having to be wet all day!

I mean presumably if she was also in a wheelchair she would be safe from bullying about also having to use nappies?

Is it that she's too busy and doesn't want to leave the job at hand?

My DS went through a stage where he was wetting himself because he didn't want to miss a game or his friends or anything and so would hold it in to stay in the moment as long as possible and then would wet himself.

It was a very trying time and needed lots of support to realise that he could rejoin a game or that it's better to miss 2 minutes of a TV show and not have the awfulness of being wet.

It sounds a bit like you're expecting her to manage it herself but she clearly isn't able. Some children aren't terribly aware of needing to go if they're focused on something. It also seems like it's become a habit that's ingrained.

Have you tried a timer? You can get her a watch (so no one else can hear it) to remind her to go to the loo when she's at school and set an alarm to go off at set intervals when she's at home.

She has to wear pyjama pants at night because she's not dry. It has to be non-negotiable. My DS wet the bed until quite recently - he's almost 9. He didn't stop wearing pyjama pants until I knew he was pretty much reliably dry (which was only achieved through a course of high dosage desmopressin). He didn't want to wear them but tough - if he wasn't dry, he was wearing a nappy at night. I think she's probably too young for desmopressin though.

Good luck - it sounds really wearing.

Is it attention seeking? Bet she gets lots of attention when she does this.

Ds2 did this for a while last year. He was too lazy to go, too caught up in what he was doing, or he would do it if he was angry because he knew it annoyed me!

Stay calm, help them get changed. Talk about other stuff. Pj nappies at night

It will pass.

I understand your frustration but I just wonder if things might improve if you pretended you just do not care!

I agree you can't know she's not being abused - I don't want to scare you but remember abuse often comes from family members or trusted professionals.

But it could be something else that's upsetting her that she can't articulate – school issues, other worries. Or it could just be that she's got into a battle of wills with you and this is the one thing she can do that gives her total power. You cannot stop her and so it gives her a feeling of control, no matter what you do.

I think you need to try a conciliatory approach, talking to her about how she feels about the situation, how it makes her feel when it happens, and if there's anything that has made her sad or worried. Explain that anyone who has this problem can fix it by catching the wee in a pull-up and that even some grown-ups need them - it's not a punishment, it's to save the furniture etc and people having to clean up. She will have to wear them until this is sorted out, but they are not "nappies". If she can control the weeing, she has a choice to stop doing it and not have to wear them. If she can't, it will help everyone feel less stressed with all the cleaning etc. And stress that you believe she will be able to leave this behind as she gets older. It's almost as if this is who she is now - 4 years of being defined by this. Let her know you see her separately from it IYSWIM.

I'd also get her involved with any cleaning - not in a cross way, just in a "this has to be done and we're doing it together" way. She helps put things in the washing machine, learns how to switch it on etc and you praise her for helping.

I know it's bloody hard for you and I agree with a PP who said try to make time for you to destress. Stomach issues can be stress-related. I found two rounds of fairly typical potty training incredibly wearing so this must be awful.

Sounds like you are at the end of your tether. There is not a huge amount you can do. I think almost try and ignore the 'accidents' and don't discuss it in front of her at all. Praise her if she has a dry day but not in an over the top way.

Only suggestions I can make would be to make your life easier by insisting on pyjama pants at night, don't let her have a drink at least an hour before bed, supervise her going for a wee immediately before bed. Make sure she goes to the toilet frequently at home and always goes just before you leave the house.

Ask if the school teacher can remind her to go to the toilet at break times.

This might sound odd - but she is smart. Talk to her. Not just after an incident, when you are calm. Tell her how it makes you feel - angry and sad and frustrated - that it makes a lot of work for you and because it makes you feel she is deliberately doing it to upset you. You don't want to be always angry with her. And you don't like the fact that it makes most of the time you have available to interact with her negative rather than positive. You want to do fun things with her - not be tidying up after her. What could you do instead? How can you (together) stop this happening? You want this to stop happening ...does she? Maybe she could go to the toilet more often to stop this happening? If she just forgets does she need reminding - but how would she like to be reminded? Does she think she needs a timer?
I have an oppositional child, I have lost my temper more than once - I have said things I really regret - (I have told her I was wrong to say it etc.) I came to this kind of approach (and the avoid direct instructions - so you need to be doing xyz rather than do xyz) after many years. And we actually were getting on much better but she was struggling at school (not getting her work done etc). Now as a teen she has been diagnosed as having ADHD - I've just been to a workshop about handling ADHD teen behaviour. Interestingly they were recommending a similar approach to what I've said above ...
She is young and won't always be in control of her behaviour, will not always go to plan but getting her to help herself and to see the rewards for doing so (happier, less bad tempered mum etc)

(as aside - actually hyperfocusing is an ADHD trait - if they are interested they can concentrate maybe too much at times - maybe worth considering? Girls are often missed as they tend to conform more - the hyperactive/impulsive behaviour is in general more controlled, they often don't get in trouble at school in the way boys tend to but do fail to concentrate -might be worth looking into more?)

YABU to keep punishing her for wetting particularly the bedwetting. You cannot actually train a child to be dry at night. It won't happen until a certain hormone kicks in. DD3 was 14 before she was completely dry at night. She was under the enuresis clinic and we actually discovered that she had to have plenty of drink in the day which actually helped her to stay dry at night.
Quite often a child will stay dry in a different environment. Possibly because they are less worried and stressed about wetting. We got this information from the enuresis clinic.
So my advice to you is to back off a bit. Put your DD in pyjama pants and explain it's to help her and not because she's a baby.
Pyjama pants actually go up to age 15 it's not unusual for a teenager to still have problems at night and it's very common for a six year old to still be bedwetting in fact the enuresis clinic won't see under sevens.

I'm probably being daft but why not let her read on the loo?

If she's absorbed in a book then let her take her book with her?

Ds1 wasn't dry at night until he was 10 so I do know what it is like to be woken every night and strip a bed. ERIC website was a huge help and desmopressin worked so we used it for holidays and over-night stays. I did not want to medicate my child on a daily basis.

I agree with PP who said set a timer and she has to stop what she is doing to go to the toilet.

We had to monitor Ds1's liquid intake (easier on weekends and in holidays) and monitor his output so he peed into a measuring jug and we recorded the volume.

That way we could see whether his bladder could hold a decent amount on urine in the day to give the doctors and indication of how much he could hold at night.

It is incredibly frustrating. Mattress wise, lots of incontinence websites sell fully zipped mattress protectors. We used brolly sheets and an alarm which helped but woke him from a very deep sleep and had his heart racing to sheer fright made him stop mid wee!

this must be awful and although I think you shouldn't punish her I can understand how difficult it is. I note that you have involvement from all kinds of 'expert medics' who say that eventually it will stop. Have they suggested any coping strategies for now? Or any local support groups? I am sure that you are not alone (as this thread shows a bit) and if you could talk to someone who really understands and maybe has got through other side it might help. you could ask consultants secretary or google it

Thank you all so much for your input, a lot to think about.

So pretty much this morning that is all I have thought about and taking on board some of the suggestions I think I'm going to go this way; please let me know your thoughts.

I'm going to sit down and have another talk with her, I'm going to say I promise I won't get angry with her anymore but she has to promise me she will try her hardest not to wet herself at home/school. If she does wet herself she will have to deal with it herself (as much as is reasonable). In addition to this she can wear pull ups at night until she is staying dry.

We are back at the hospital in December so ill see what the consultant suggests then. She is 7 in a few weeks so he may have some more options open to us once she's that age.

Have you tried a timer?

I would get her a timer, with an alarm. Set the alarm for once an hour. Every time the alarm goes off, she has to go for a wee.

If she doesn't go, she puts a nappy on, very low key, not as a punishment but as an Oh dear, if we don't use the timer then the sofa gets wet, so we had better stick some nappies on.

The timer helps her to stop what she is doing and go for a wee, and it also teaches her a habit of going.

Alternatively you could have set time wees, so wee on waking, wee after breakfast, wee at snack time, wee before lunch etc. That way she is doing enough wees to ensure her bladder doesn't get to bursting point.

What is she like at school?

I agree please never say never about abuse. Abuse can happen anywhere by anyone.

Not sure if you have tried this already but have you rung ERIC (the charity for childhood continence). They are great and have been really helpful with similar problem in my 4 year old.

I don't want to worry you or make you feel guilty, but when I did some online research I also found that there is evidence of this type of incontinence causing lasting psychological problems into adulthood when it is treated in a harsh, punishing way. I have totally changed my way of dealing with my 4yo because of it. i know how frustrating it is, and I have got cross with my DC about it - but now I am trying to deal with it just in a matter-of-fact way, and it does seem to be helping matters.

I no longer offer rewards for "being dry" (or get cross for being wet) - ERIC helped me see that it is not (for whatever reason) within my DC's control. What is within their control is to go to the loo at regular intervals (every 2 hours is recommended - more often may cause an overactive bladder, which can be part of the problem). Also to deal with wetness in an appropriate way - for my 4yo, that's telling me - for a 6yo, it might be changing their clothes and putting the wet ones in a bucket or sink to soak.

School should put a care plan into place to remind your DD, and to help her when she has an accident. My 4yo gets reminded every 2 hours, and if she's wet, then she can go to a private place in the school office to get changed discreetly. Also, school are treating it in a lovely, kind, doesn't-matter-at-all kind of way (totally different to nursery, who were cross with her when it happened).

My 4yo sounds like your 6yo - she will wet herself just sitting somewhere, apparently without caring. But, after talking more to he about it, I think that she genuinely does not get much warning, and is not very aware of the physical sensation.

Long-term constipation can affect this. I didn't think my 4yo was constipated, but now I am beginning to think that it has been part of the problem. She is now taking Movicol, and we have just had a week where she has not wet herself at school at all. (though she has at home several times).

I really recommend calling ERIC and talking it through - they have fab advisors, who really know what they are talking about and have heard it all before.

YABVU!!! And damaging to her mental health!

My dd went through this when she was young. Just wee'd everywhere, wasn't bothered. On her brother's birthday I sat her down and said "dd, it's your db's birthday, let's try and have dry knickers all day" She asked why, I said because it would be nice ... she never wee'd again! I don't know why this worked, I'm still confused 10 years down the line! But she wet the bed at nights until age 11. We got tablets from the hospital (ditropan I think), and they worked great. Within a couple of months she no longer wet the bed. The tablets worked by relaxing the bladder muscles, which then allow the bladder to fill properly and empty properly.

She's now 16 and is going back on the tablets for daytime as she can't hold her wee AT ALL. When she needs to go, she needs to get there fast. GP says she has an irritable/sensitive bladder.

These tablets work great for us, I hope you get similar results from whatever the hospital chooses. In the meantime, try to keep very calm and try to remember it's not her fault. I used to think dd was just trying to wind me up

OP, please, please do the alarm/timer thing. It really does work

We had a similar situation with dd1. It happened after we moved house and she started at a new preschool. She was perfectly dry during the day before. I put it down to psychological pressure. She would do exactly as you describe, just sit there and wee with no realisation of what she'd done. It was infuriating. It went on for about a year and then she seemed to just stop. I think it's something that she has to understand for herself but in the mean time you're going to have to make her wear pull ups. They're quite good these days and don't look like nappies. If she doesn't like it and throws a strip, tough. When she can go to the loo she can stop wearing them. If she takes it off at school she can suffer the consequences.

I'm not convinced even at 6 that she will be able to take on board how awful that this is for you. Even if you explain she just hasn't got the capacity to understand. I had to replace ds mattress recently after he wet the bed and I'd forgotten to put on the protector. It was ruined even after washing it smelt of wee but ds didn't want a new mattress.

I think that she's unable to manage her daytime toilet ting so you need to do it for her by taking her to the toilet regularly

But think your approach sounds great. If you do the alarm/timer thing too, I suspect it will really help. She can't enjoy being wet but she probably doesn't know how to stop it so she's just coming across as intransigent

Like a lot of pp we had similar issues with dd until age 10.

It took yearsto get to the bottom of it, but in the end it turned out to be an overactive bladder (her brain would get the signal to wee way before it was actually full, and alwYs sudden, hence the wetting).

We also had to do a wee diary recording input and output of liquids tocheck bladder capacity.

She took desmopressin for a year, but she wasdry within a couple of weeks starting it. I wish she'd had it soonerto be honest.

Tbh, from the reading I've done it's actually very rarely a way offetting attention/control, despite thd fact it's thefirst thing most people bring up.

Best of luck op I know how frustrating it is, I have another dd with similar issues, but she's too young to be referredyet and it is driving me bonkers, despite everything I know now!

And the other thing that will help is regular trips to the loo, every 2 hours. And absolutely yes to night nappies, not negotiable! For everybody's sanity.

Hi OP. My DD is 6 and has an overactive bladder. Like your DD she has never really been dry in the day and I insist on a pull up at night because she doesn't even wake up if she wets the bed - she sleeps so deeply she doesn't notice.

Go back to your GP and get referred to the hospital to see a continance specialist.

There is medication that she can take. DD has been on Oxybutynin for about 3 months now and yesterday had her first accident in about 3 weeks. Taking the medication was like a switch, it gives her enough time to get to the loo when she feels the urge.

Seeing the specialist gave me the information I needed to deal with this problem. Like you I have been at the end of my tether and dished out punishments that didn't work. The specialist told me that they have done so much research and experiments that they know this isn't something that a child with an overactive bladder can control. They may not realise they need to go and they might not be aware they have wet themselves until they feel the damp.

Please stop punishing your DD, it may well be out of her control. Get back to the GP and ask for oxybutynin, push for a specialist. Neither of you should be made miserable with this when there is a solution.

I feel so sorry for you OP, because I've been having the exact same problems - very bright DD (age 5), basically can't be arsed to go to the toilet. I've had my DD checked as well, and there's nothing physically wrong. She also has no problems when with grandparents. It was these two factors that changed my mindset on the whole problem. Hard as it is to take, I've decided that it's me who's the problem, and I needed to do something about my own mentality on the matter. So firstly, I decided to get into a frame of mind of thinking "what does it matter if she wets herself?" - it doesn't really, it's not like it's a life threatening illness, she's not going to die when she wets herself. It was really hard to force myself into this frame of mind, especially when she wees on the settee, but I've done it and it's massively took the pressure off me. I just don't care now whether she wets herself or not. My DD does wear a pull-up at night though - doing that also takes the pressure off. Once I'd got my own frame of mind sorted, I then totally ignored the whole problem - so now if she wets herself, I just say "well go get changed then", and I don't mention it again. If she wets on the settee, I just wash it down, while she's upstairs, and don't mention it to her at all. I NEVER ask her if she needs a wee (even when she's doing the "wee-dance"!). If she comes home from school wet, I just tell her to get changed, I don't mention it again. I leave her to do everything herself - she takes off her wet pants, puts them in the wash basket, and gets herself another pair, and I completely ignore her until it's all done, and I don't say anything even after that - I don't praise her for getting changed etc. Basically, total ignoring of the situation has helped me the most, particularly my own sanity. I've only been doing this for a couple of weeks, but she does seem to be getting better - she's had a few dry days recently. But TBH now, I don't even know half the time, whether she's wet herself or not, because she's stopped even bothering to tell me, she just goes upstairs and gets changed - and I'm quite happy with that. It means she now realises it is totally HER problem now and not mine. My DD's problem also seems to be stress related though, so she could just suddenly go completely incontinent again at some point (the most recent time this happened was starting back at school this September) - she shows no other signs of stress though - at the time she was mega-excited about being back to school, and she's generally a really happy, easy-going girl.
The only other thing I've noticed, is citrus fruits. My DD eats mountains of fruit (she would only eat fruit all day if I let her), and particularly likes oranges, and I've noticed that if I cut down her fruit intake, and cut out oranges, it seems to help, but I'm wary of doing this because I don't want to cut out an important food group if that's not really the problem. I'm going to ask the consultant next time I see them.

I have no expertise in how to tackle the daytime wetting, but I would absolutely put her in pull ups at night. My own 6 year old is still in pull ups at night as she is not consistently dry yet. It wouldn't be fair on her to wake up wet and uncomfortable every night.