To Think The UK is a Racist Country and the racism is deeply ingrained.

[ACoolDad]

For the last couple of weeks BBC Three has been running documentaries about racism and racial tensions in the U.K and USA. This week we saw a program called "Is Britain Racist?" it failed to prove much apart from black men are seen as more likely to steal from shops and women in Burka's are more likely to face verbal abuse.

As a second generation Black Briton from Jamaica, I have faced racism many times, I do believe the UK is a racist country but it is a in the closet type of racism that is hard to prove. The UK unlike the USA has a type of racism in which few people are openly racist, but racism is deeply ingrained into are mindsets as the program explored.

The presenter who comes across as a very anti racist person still perceived black people as dangerous sub consciously when she had her brain scanned. You have to ask why? You have to ask why black people have been sub consciously viewed as angry, violent and criminals.

I am so proud of my family and my black, mixed and white children and stepchildren. My family represent the tolerant modern Britain that we have and should be proud of.

My son aged 15 was stopped and searched two weeks ago. My white stepson aged 15 has never been stopped and searched, despite them wearing similar clothes, my black son has been profiled by the same mentality explored in the documentary. The type of racism is so difficult to fight as it is so difficult to prove it is racism.

Britain comes across as a country that is improving in terms of race, but I believe certain people and aspects of the media always have to push the idea of white supremacy in different forms. In the past it was considered that black individuals were considered less intelligent now it is considered blacks are more likely to be criminals.

It would be interesting to hear what you think.

i was quite shocked that about 10 years ago you could hear on BBC and so on openly implying that Eastern Europeans are less educated, less intelligent, (should) have less paid jobs, screw the country over benefits etc. Well, of course, they are not black, so to say these type of things is sort of ok, right. As it cannot be racism by default because nobody of involved people are of different colour.

In my local NHS health centre the new patient registration form in the section of race and ethnicity among the white, black and Asian have Eastern European. Since when that is a separate race? One could always say, it's not racism, it's a lack of knowledge, but I think trying to separate out from their race people of one particular region actually is rather racist towards people who are not even black or 'of colour'.

I would however like to say that UK even though is rather tolerant country. In big cities like London more than in small ones, but that is the rule in most countries and is not particularly UK specific.

Alis, by the same token, before his fall from grace, Tiger Woods earned $100 million dollars per year in endorsements, the highest ever paid. By contrast Rory McIlroy only earns $30 million. Is that a racial bias too? Or does it have more to do with one being more attractive, personable and sellable than the other?

Incidentally, Serena has made $70 million in tennis prize money to Sharapova's $35 million. Something which might have something to do with the fact that she concentrates on playing tennis, not on having her picture taken and flogging tat. Like a sweets line called 'Sugarpova'.

Not like for like, Booyaka. Woods is by far the more successful sportsman and had been for many years. Totally different to the tennis case.

In terms of what can you do?

I think it's the small things...talk to people, ask questions, encourage your children to mix with different kids, don't cross a road when you see a black man walking towards you, don't assume a group of black boys are up to no good, offer your unconditional support to a colleague or friend who feels they have experienced racism

Oh yes as ego says the media. Try to counter the things they see in the media which stereotypes blacks and Asians. No not all black women have giant bums no not all Asians murder their children in honour killings no not all
Black men are drug dealers etc etc

" vthe things all women need to go to get on in in life - stellar exam results, best university, really well paid career, hard work, full time career, received pronunciation, wearing what people wear who lead rather than follow "

Those things are so easy for all women to achieve aren't they?
FGS Grazia, not all women are middle class North Londoners y'know?

Exactly ego because a one size fits all approach isn't going to work.

Eg Future careers and lifestyles. If you went into a deprived area where outcome for minority children was worse than for white British ones, what you'd need to discuss, and say, and more importantly provide would be nothing like the same exercise in a top independent. The first group would need the possibility of aiming high to be made into a realistic option whilst facing daily battles every time they walk out the door. The second group would want to discuss tactics for breaking through ceilings they'll encounter. Ceilings the first group have very good reason to believe aren't worth even aiming for.

Future issues my dd may encounter as a brown skinned, black haired teen or adult, even with the sexist angle thrown in, are nothing like the issues faced by a teen/ adult black male in a deprived inner city area. Even the experience of a young black male at Dds school isn't comparable to the deprived counterpart.

Those are good ideas crystal and I do them. It's really important on a micro-level at home to ensure there is no racism at all. (My son has no white friends but that is of course because there are no white boys in his class except for him and at that level it becomes almost irrelevant on a daily basis for them all - they are all English boys working hard at school).

I don't think less well off children of any colour should lower their ambitions at all. That woudl be an awful attitude. There is no reason any black boy cannot compete as well as Chinese and Asian boys for places at the best universities. In fact it is inner London comps which are going so much better than areas like Hull where most chidlren are white and working class and get 2 GCSE grades lower than inner London first or second immigrant non white children.

I idn't say these things are easy - nothing in life is easier but immigrants or second generation ones are better (not worse) at these things than native white Brits who are disadvantaged. "the things all women need to go to get on in in life - stellar exam results, best university, really well paid career, hard work, full time career, received pronunciation, wearing what people wear who lead rather than follow ". My son is a postman. My cleaner's son (non-white and Muslim) is doing the same law course my daughters did. That shows London working at its best.

Brits aren't disadvantaged though. They have the same education system and the same support than the non-white (or non british) children.

It has more to do with their aspiration and the culture.
A lot of second generation children (regardless of their skin colour actually) are brought up taking education in high regard and as a way to climb the ladder and make a better life for themselves.
So they end up doing better than their white british counterpart.

I don't believe that saying 'oh look this back/asian/chinese person is doing very well and better than that white british person' is a sign that thiungs are doing well either.
It just means that that the system doesn't actively stop all people who arent white british to go to Uni.
It doesn't mean there is no racism still in place (ie if the person is black/asian etc... then they might still be less likely to get a place than a white counterpart with the same results).

I do agree that there is a strong element of clas issue too.

But it's not that it's just a class issue or it's just a racial issue. Often the two are interlinked and mixed together so closely that it's impossible to say when one starts and when ones stops.

But not always - being more likely to be arrested if you are black doesn't have any link with the class system. That much is clear.
On an interview, one white person been chosen instead of the black one with similar packground/experience can easily be a racist issue (I don't want a black person) or a class issue (doesn't behave like I expect him to) or more likely some sort of mixture that in effect says 'I don't recognise myself there. This is too different'.

I say that as non white british person who has experienced that sort of attitude and the 'not fitting in' quite a lot.

The unconscious othering can be infuriating and upsetting:

There was a thread on the shootings in the USA and people were saying what a dangerous country it is.
Someone - probably from the USA - posted that it wasn't for "normal, i.e. white people" and compared the rates of white UK / white USA murder victims.

Well, I corrected their very inaccurate statistics but I also reported that oarticular post because:

1. I am a normal British citizen, even though I'm BME
2. Even if the rate for white victims had been the same UK / USA, the dreadfully high death rate for African Americans is shameful to the USA. Black Lives Matter.

The mass incarceration of African American males seriously damages and distorts the chances for all African Americans, compared to white Americans.

We have nothing like that level of imprisonment and thankfully not our police don't shoot hundreds of BME men per year. However, we dare not be complacent about the wider effects of a significant degree of injustice that exists in the UK policing and criminal justice system.

othering that's a much better for what I was trying to say.

I think the class issue even impacts something like the chances of arrest. Far less stop and search in expensive wine bars, or at Oxbridge campuses, top notch city offices etc than outside your average pub on a housing estate, the average town high street, finishing a shift on an industrial estate etc.

I don't think the experiences of all BME people is te same or equitable.

I'm Asian. I think black people have it far worse than me in terms
Of racism, stereotyping, lack of opportunities etc

Asians are othered in different ways. We are smart hardworking Hindus or backwards Pakistanis or exotic 'colourful' communities or shop/curry house owners etc. We are pigeonholed into boxes. I think as soon as someone sees me they see an Asian woman and then they are trying to work out my religion firstly and then to see how liberal or backwards I am. Am I going to be British like them or old fashioned? Do they need to speak to me a certain way? Drinking alcohol is a part of this. Once they realise you don't drink you are 'different'. Gosh so many many different things.

However I think if I were a black woman the emphasis like be more on whether I was softly
Spoken or aggressive or opinionated because black women are seen as 'angry'. Asian women have the opposite stereotype as we are seen as meek. I can imagine the frustrations of a black woman wanting to be heard but worries about being seen as 'too black'
in her behaviour ie aggressive

Tiger Woods earned $100 million dollars per year in endorsements, the highest ever paid. By contrast Rory McIlroy only earns $30 million. Is that a racial bias too?

Are you suggesting that this is bias against McIIroy because McIiroy is white? Woods is perhaps the greatest golfer who has ever played the game, with the possible exception of Jack Nicklaus. It would be questionable if he were not compensated accordingly.

It is definitely a disavantage in many contexts in the UK not to be white. I doubt anyone on here disputes that and ditto being female which affects far far far more women in the UK. The UK is 87% white and 50% female.

You can play with figures all you like but yes there is discrimination. However I don't think it is fair to say there is a huge amount of endemic race discrimination in the UK. Most of us are genuinely not racist. Now some non white people might say no white person can possibly say that but I don't agree. Plenty of us try to treat everyone fairly.

I don't drink either and I don't do work social events and all these things we all do or don't do have an impact.

No Seneca. I was pointing out that when there was a discrepancy between earnings between two players of different races there are a variety of different factors which come into play, because the difference between Woods and McIlroy clearly isn't caused by race. To some extent it's different levels of success in that case. But it's also things like the most aggressive management team, being prepared to endorse any old shit, having a more bland media friendly personality, being more conventionally attractive. The same factors also apply to Sharapova and Williams. Saying 'it's because of race' assumes that none of the other factors are relevant to them, and I think you'd have to be a bit credulous to imagine that was the case.

Grazia I think this is where you arrive back to the OP where she said that often racism isn't obvious but very much underhand in the UK.

I fully believe that this is the case here. Because it's not politically correct to be racist/voice racist views, you will hardly hear it. Nor will you have people telling you that they are racist.
However, this doesn't mean that underneath the gloss, people aren't racist and acting as such.

To be honest, I found exactely the same thing about sexism (and I come from a country whioch is allegedelly sexist. And it is more in your face but nowehere near as sexist as the UK actually is).
And I also found that 'being othered' is well trylu alive even with white people. So I am sure that Black/Asian etc people will have it worse than I do.

cristal this is an interesting pov actually, the need to check which religion you are etc...
I'm wondering if this doesn't have a relation too with again the politically correct way to behave if the person you are with is muslim/hindi etc...

Tbh imo putting people into boxes IS the way most British people behave towards others. Are you MC, WC, posh, not posh, from x county or y (with the associated accent)? Do you say napkin or serviette etc... What sortt of subjects are you talking about... And god forbid you aren't fitting the box.

(Note: My pov MAY be strongly influenced by where I live...)