To Think The UK is a Racist Country and the racism is deeply ingrained.

[ACoolDad]

For the last couple of weeks BBC Three has been running documentaries about racism and racial tensions in the U.K and USA. This week we saw a program called "Is Britain Racist?" it failed to prove much apart from black men are seen as more likely to steal from shops and women in Burka's are more likely to face verbal abuse.

As a second generation Black Briton from Jamaica, I have faced racism many times, I do believe the UK is a racist country but it is a in the closet type of racism that is hard to prove. The UK unlike the USA has a type of racism in which few people are openly racist, but racism is deeply ingrained into are mindsets as the program explored.

The presenter who comes across as a very anti racist person still perceived black people as dangerous sub consciously when she had her brain scanned. You have to ask why? You have to ask why black people have been sub consciously viewed as angry, violent and criminals.

I am so proud of my family and my black, mixed and white children and stepchildren. My family represent the tolerant modern Britain that we have and should be proud of.

My son aged 15 was stopped and searched two weeks ago. My white stepson aged 15 has never been stopped and searched, despite them wearing similar clothes, my black son has been profiled by the same mentality explored in the documentary. The type of racism is so difficult to fight as it is so difficult to prove it is racism.

Britain comes across as a country that is improving in terms of race, but I believe certain people and aspects of the media always have to push the idea of white supremacy in different forms. In the past it was considered that black individuals were considered less intelligent now it is considered blacks are more likely to be criminals.

It would be interesting to hear what you think.

BME people aren't allowed to discuss how they feel about being a minority

I can kind of see partly where grazia is coming from with the class aspect. The experience of a black or Asian child in an independent school, and future life experiences (in terms of racism) is nothing like the racism experienced by a black or Asian child and then adult in a poorer area. However I don't think knowing that offers any form of solution to racism.

I do think that other races as well as white people are racist though, even if whites aren't usually the ones it's directed at. And of course as the establishment itself is white, it isn't as ingrained.

I do disagree re Jews though. It is pretty obvious at first glance if people are jewish. Although I don't think in terms of police/ careers etc it has the same effect. Gypsys and irish travellers again, the police like lots of society discriminate. Although tbf if you put a single irish traveller in a city centre it isn't noticeable to a passer by so I agree there. Once people know people are travellers though, all bets are off and anything goes.

This is slightly off topic -

I was reading an article about Serena Williama and Maria Sharapova in one magazine or another about their alleged feud, usual sort of article all about their love lives. But one thing stuck out for me - that Sharapova is worth more money than Williams in terms of endorsements for sports brands etc. I was confused as to that could be, Williams the best in the world. The best. I'm not a follower of tennis so I knew that and not an awful lot more.

So I did some googling, and came across all these awful articles about how Williams looks "like a man", is "angry and aggressive". And I realised - it's racism. Serena Williams is the best in the world at what she does and it doesn't seem to matter, because she's black. That was when it really clicked for me, what BME people mean when they talk of insidious racism and having to work so much harder to be considered to be equal to a white person who isn't even as good as they at what they do. I felt quite stupid, that it took me until I was 25/26 to get it, to be honest.

I am absolutely a victim of the racist school system/society. I've had 3 new teachers tell me they were surprised that I produced the quality of work that I did. At the time I felt it racist but I never understood or had the confidence to trust my understanding of racism. As an adult I understood that they all would have had access to my academic file but my very good grades did not stand above thier prejudices and their assumptions. I spent a lot of time in trouble as did nearly all of my black classmates and in hindsight, I can honestly say that until we started to live up to people expectations of us and that self fulfilling prophecy, we were no worse than our white or Asian classmates. It feels ridiculous that all these years later I should feel the need to justify that I was just as bad or just as good as my friends of different races. A consequence of this was that I had little academic expectation placed on me in school. I can attribute all of my academic success to two black teachers and one of the important lessons they both taught me was racism is real and that racism is what makes me have to work twice as much as my best friend to be recognised as having intelligence on a level close to hers. They got me to understand that I am bot defined by peoples expectations of who I was (which at the time is what I used as a foundation for the identity I was assuming as a young teen) and that societies very racist view of who I am, what I think, how I behave, how intelligent I was likely to be and where I sat amongst my white counterparts was exactly as a result of racism NOT who I, my mum, my dad or my friend's were. Throughout life I have considered myself a winger but why? I'm perfectly capable of doing well but I seem to associate doing well with the innate ability to bullshit rather than the fact I just can and have the knowledge to do well when applying myself. Why do I inherently assume white people to be smarter when that IS not my experience? My 4 year old son does the same thing. Where did he get that from? Of course none of this can directly be attributed to racism but all of the little instances that have fed into this over the years have absoloulty been as a result of racism.

^ was for Ego

Apologies for the spelling and grammar. I'm on my phone!

Fith I'm talking about BME people on the street, on the ground, in everyday jobs, kids in deprived areas not the teeny tiny minority that have managed to make it into politics. I'm sure you're not and this is how tone gets misconstrued on the net but you sound almost angry and resentful at BME people and their very real lack of voice in society.

I agree with you about attitudes to Roma/traveller communities. I teach in a school with a few of these kids.

"I do disagree re Jews though. It is pretty obvious at first glance if people are jewish. " - I'm confused about this. Are you saying that you can easily tell who is Jewish and who is not or are you just talking about orthodox or Hassidic Jews because of the way that they dress?

Fith yes the knowledge you have of black figures and the clarity in which you recall them makes me think you are well read. I then wonder why your conclusion is so tunnelled. You sound like someone who completely ignores one half of the argument and those people typically appear to me to be racists! Active racists too!

Education doesn't necessarily help. I worked for an Indian for a while, there were a few other Indians in the lab. One of my colleagues said she applied for 100s of jobs (no visa issues, excellent degree and PhD) and her first interview was with our Indian boss and she got the job. No-one else wanted to even interview the Indian woman.

There were studies done when identical CVs were sent out, identical except for the white or black name at the top. The white candidates got more invites to interview. You see this unconscious bias against women as well, have done some interesting work in this area.

What I find quite depressing is that e.g. the suffragette movement came out of the abolitionist movement in the UK because the women involved in the abolitionist movement experienced so much sexism themselves they decided to fight for female rights as well as black rights. Same thing happened in the 1960s in America, the women in the civil rights movement experienced so much sexism they started the second wave feminist movement (a movement that itself has been accused of having too white a gaze and ignoring the additional problems WOC have). Why are people who are fighting against one prejudice so blind to their own prejudice in another area? It's pretty depressing.

Black people are not one homogeneous race. Yes that exists but I'm not sure that it exists amongst black people more than any other race. That is not my experience of my friends, families, colleagues, acquaintances and even of the black parents in my sons majority black school. It is a trait which I have never seen from an African family but in the very occasional times I have experienced this it has been from west Indian families. The outcomes of African and Caribbean children in education are similar though. African and Caribbean people interact more with white people than they do amongst themselves so how do you explain this? I am under no illusion that the major issue here is the impact of racism on our children. I have just taken a look and its very hard to find a link but there is a theory called post traumatic slave syndrome and that basically talks of the effects of slavery. One thing that I read there was that slaves were not allowed ro be educated and kids that were were either take to work in houses and thus repeatedly raped or sold on as they were valuable. The west indies are made of people who ALL have an ancestory of slaves. Its natural that the effects of slavery still exists and the short time in which slavery has ended in comparison to the length of time it occurred, is likely to have some lasting effects. This I believe, amongst the small amount of people I have loosely come across who dont prioritise education, is one reason to explain why! Sorry for spelling and grammar again.

^Forgot to say that education posed a hindrance as it was more likely to get you killed, raped or taken away from your family than be of ANY benefit to you as a slave!

POST TRAUMATIC SLAVE SYNDROME ANOTHER GREAT, EYE OPENING READ

bambam personally yes, I can usually tell, however that isn't what I was thinking of when I said obvious. Although tbh my post wasn't very clear, I was referring more to the fact it's usually obvious signs, like orthodoxy etc that attract racism.

i too can attest to racism in uk and in canada- and i too decline to describe personal experiences of this on mn. But i think the proof of the pudding as to whether a country is racist or not is in the %s e.g. compare the % of people with prison records according to racial groups with the % s of these racial groups in that society. OR compare the %s of different racial groups in different income brackets in any society with the the %s of those groups in that society. Or compare the different %s of children from different racial groups who go the university with the % s in that society.etc The %s show the systemic racism that prove whether a country is racist or not.

ego that's crap in my experience. Research into schools in Jamaica they have their own problems but behaviour and good grades aren't it.

This isn't evidence based but growing up the Nigerian boys always had a strict curfew, wouldn't be allowed sleepovers and had to do their homework. The Caribbean boys pretty much the same although were mixed in more and more 'english' and rebelled like the English boys. We all got in to loads of trouble growing up the only real difference was being white they weren't quick to write us off. The policeman would have a word with you instead of cautioning you and a lot of black Caribbean boys ended up in far more trouble for the same things.

another I got flamed for saying slavery is the black holocaust on here once there was talks about the holocaust being the worst thing to ever happen. On another thread everyone was so quick to point out white people were slaves to and the Arabs had a slave trade first. Almanac records show up to 100 million Africans being stolen for slaves but no one will talk about that. It's an overreaction and people like to believe what they're comfortable believing.

amarmai I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think those alone are the most foolproof way to judge racism. With European migration, you could compare the stats for all those between Eastern European and Afro Caribbean and conclude from the numbers UK racism is more ingrained when it comes to white Europeans. Which I don't think is a true representation of the actual facts iyswim.

I've said tell us what to do and we'll do it - I'm white although like everyone I came from Africa originally and as I've freckles etc I am 5% Neanderthal. I don't think I'm racist. I know how people of all colours can get on in the UK and I give that advice as not to do it is pointless. I also don't drink so eg I was recently at a few events with someone (not white) who doesn't drink and is new. I knew he was uncomfortable when the whisky bottle came out and I was pleased to be the one to help in saying I don't drink and he and I left both events early. Now that did not make me go away polishing my white halo of how good am I etc but I do like most white British do my bit to try to make everyone around us feel comfortable. If you tell us more what to do we will do it.

I am not saying everyone who has a cockney accent (or the Geordie accent where I am from) has to change to received pronunciation. I am just saying that for many jobs and higher income levels you have to fit in to get on. By all means fight that (my daughter didn't get a job because of a tongue stud - silly her) but that is how it is. Work to change the culture so there is no posh test in some jobs but don't think it doesn't exist. The UK has always been much more about class than colour. We are a pretty tolerant nation.

Also where I live where almost everyone is not white it's a bit hard to tralk about discrimination against people who aren't white actually.

Also on the comment above yes feminism must trump everything else all the time. If a culture is sexist then the culture is wrong and I couldn't care less if its people are blue in the face I will fight it and tell them they are wrong and must change.

The class issue is tied in with the racism though. No argument from me the most well educated upper class ethnic minority person will still encounter racism, whether that's some passing twat on a night out or in their career or anything else. But it won't be remotely on the scale of the racism encountered by an ethnic minority person at the bottom of the social/ economic ladder. What is needed to solve the problems at the top end is very different to what is needed at the bottom end of the class ladder.

Eg if someone went in to Dds independent school to discuss racism, and ask about problems people have encountered or think they might in future, the answers would be very very different to going into the closest deprived area to it and talking to kids at the state comprehensive there. Thus the potential solutions would be.

Yeah, everyone is happy as anything. Because what would happen if those people made a fuss, if you made a fuss? Would all the white people around you/them say, "gosh yes, we have been utter knobbers, please accept our total apology"?

No, and I think it would I would prove them right in being 'difficult' if I made any sort of complaints.

I agree, but if we're trying to discuss possible ways to reduce racism, we need to look at the full experience across the classes. Tackling racism at one end is often very different to the other end.

I have never said there is no racism. I want it ripped out where it occurs but I do regard the British as some of the most racially tolerant people on the planet and one reason people want to live here is because of that. They are dying trying to escape from the more racist French to get to the more tolerant British as they run from Calais. That does not mean I think we are perfect. Of course we aren't and I am happy to debate the issues.

Like many immigrants (I'm not an immigrant) my view is you tend to get on through hard work and working out what works in terms of earning more, getting a good profession and the like. By all means fight racism wherever you see it - I have tried to do that for 40 years actually although no one on the thread seems to appreciate that I might have done - but push yourself on too. It is cutting your nose off to spite your face if you don't do the things all women need to go to get on in in life - stellar exam results, best university, really well paid career, hard work, full time career, received pronunciation, wearing what people wear who lead rather than follow etc.