To be annoyed/hurt by my good friend and think high earners should be willing to pay more ?

[whatislife]

i have been lurking on MN for a long time and never posted. Decided to join today and thought I'd mark the occasion with a rant.
I got in an argument with my friend (2 days ago) and the anger re-appeared when she sent me a text this morning. This doesn't really matter though.

The argument started when she made a snarky comment about an old friend of ours (not very close to be honest). The woman had been complaining about money and started ranting about high earners, tax and all sorts. My friend , a very high earner (think 6 figures), kept quiet the whole while and then started talking about it to me. This is where she said something along the lines of 'No one forced her to messed around at school and screw her life up. Im not going to feel bad because I worked hard' and 'why should I pay more tax when I already pay a ridiculous amount and she doesn't pay any'. These comments really angered me because I am also a low earner and rely on benefits - she knows this ! So we got into an argument about tax and benefits (silly i know but personal comments were also made).

My question is ; AIBU to think my close friend (and high earners in general) should realise how lucky she is and be willing to pay more tax so people like me can also have a normal life?

Ah house is only worth what a bank will allow someone to borrow! Hence the artificialuly low rates, printing money and interest only mortgages keeping them high.

There are loads of separate issues in all thise each deserving of a thread.

1. Does it matter if someone has more than you do as happiness does not corelate to income? You can be happy in a mud hut.
2. Is difference between people a bad thing? Should we try to even it out eg ensure everyone is born a clone or ensure only the state owns property as has been tried in China, Russia, Cuba, the Eastern block etc. Should everything be held in common as on a traditional Israeli Kibbutz.

The above doesn't work as some people are as lazy as sin and others then feel exploited.

1. Why do some women earn a lot more than others? Is it fair I charge £360 an hour plus VAT (although not for every hour of my day)? Am I so much more valuable than a cleaner on £6 an hour or 16 year old on less than that?
2. When taxes are high as they are now by the way (never in British history have the better off paid such a high share of the tax burden) does that mean more money comes into the state to give to the poor or does it have the opposite ieffect? Do people instead do lawful avoidance like putting savings into the wife's name or making her their secretary or just stopping working as hard?

Fundamentally this will happen soonish anyway.

Industry can't keep growing, the economy can't keep growing. Robots can do jobs better and more cheaply than humans in many fields already and those fields will simply increase with time.

We are in a finite resources - finite market situation. continuous growth isn't an option.

I cringe when politicians bang on about new markets opening up in China or India or wherever...I mean sure - prop up the economy with these new markets now...but then what? What happens when you run out of new markets to exploit?

We are going to have to adapt quickly to a world in which people don't define themselves by their successful work...because there isn't going to be much work available....

People will have to have fun instead...and some people seem very poorly mentally prepared for that.

Or endlessly sell each other recycled home made shit on facebook...

grazia many good points....I would settle for people not looking down on those that are happy as they are for lacking ambition or drive...

I think 'ambitious' will be a synonym for 'selfish' in 100-200 years time...

Things will be changing fast!

Every time we get one of these threads, we have the same people saying the same things. So I might as well add my "same thing" to the rest of the pile.

1. I earn a lot of money, working as a barrister (so several years of study, long and often anti-social hours, pressure and stress around court hearings but effectively self-employed so able to take time off if I want to).

1. My parents were not rich but had lots of incredibly useful skills and experience to pass on. In particular, my mum was a primary school teacher and taught me and my brothers to read before we went to school.

1. I am intelligent and have an excellent memory. I got all A*s in my GCSEs and all As in my A levels (nearly 20 years ago).

1. I am quite happy to work hard and always have been. That's just my personality.

There is obviously a massive amount of luck in there. Yes, I worked hard at school and university. Yes, I work hard now. Yes, I do sometimes have to make sacrifices in terms of not seeing my children as much as I would like, travelling for work etc etc. But I know many others have to make those sacrifices and are not paid anything like what I'm paid. I also think that I was extremely lucky to be born (a) clever, (b) with a good memory which is essential for passing exams and (c) with an inclination to work hard.

I have never understood the point about the incentive to do high-pressure, high-earning jobs being removed by higher levels of taxation. Sure, if you take it to extremes, there may be a disincentive. And there may be disincentives at the margins (i.e. if you earn slightly more than £150K, you might end up paying more tax than if you earn slightly less). But ultimately, if someone earns £150K, they get to take home £90K of that. It would take someone working a 48 hour week on the minimum wage 6 years to earn that much in take home pay (leaving tax credits and benefits out of the equation for the moment). That sounds like a pretty good incentive to me.

Should add - and I think the incentives would still be absolutely fine if the tax rate at £150K or more was increased from 45% to 50% or even 60%.

I think it's funny that people love the inherited wealthy, they love the people who made money out of property, they love the company directors and self employed who fiddle their books- but high salaried workers? Selfish scum don't know how lucky they are.

thehypocritesoaf - I'm all for whacking up inheritance tax and bringing in a more effective property tax too.

I hope you don't mean me? I would set inheritance tax at 100% personally...

I like the fact that the people looking down on others as lacking motivation/ambition etc. are all apparently only motivated by money.

Take the money not even away, but down a notch, and suddenly they would lose interest.

How virtuous they all are to be solely in it for the money...

I would like a surgeon who is in it for the caring not the money

But then if you take that to its logical conclusion, the same could be said for poorly paid TAs, etc ... and quite rightly, nobody would ever suggest the "caring" aspect of their role means they should receive less

Some excellent points have been made about genuinely disadvantaged immigrants building a good life, which illustrates the inconvenient truth that - with some obvious exceptions - it can be done if the will is truly there

Not a fashionable thing to say I know, but in the end I honestly feel a lot of this is about the difference between those who can't and those who won't

Fortunately for me Icebeing I think I am in a job which is long way off from being mechanised . Unfortunately for me it is also a job which is not traditionally very well paid , I will never earn enough to hit the 40% tax bracket , or at least I cannot see that happening .

I have a friend who has just been promoted in another industry , he will now have a six figure salary , so will be earning £60k more than me pa . Does he work 'harder' than me ? probably not , does anyone actually die if he gets his job wrong , nope . Do I think he deserves it ? why not , he has worked his way up to his current role over 20 years , studied part time to get qualifications , worked endless unpaid over time , worked hard for shit pay at the start . He does work in an industry which values its work force and for a relatively small company which genuinely looks after its staff , they reward and encourage the staff who want to achieve more .

Curious to know what is the definition of a 'living wage' for the UK ? how much would a single person or family need to be earning to qualify ?

I think the immigrant success stories are people who are only disadvantaged in the specific manner of starting from nothing. They are not then further disadvantaged by disability, low academic ability, low parental aspirations, low personal tenacity..etc etc.

I personally have achieved reasonably well in spite of almost cripplingly low levels of tenacity and work ethic. But I had everything else....

People can likely overcome at least some of the inequality of their genetics and environment...but not if it all stacks up against them.

Many immigrant groups are only here because they had the get up and go (literally) to move so far in order to succeed. That is a huge asset in the workplace...but it isn't one you can just decide to have, or buy in tescos, or work towards...it is just as inbuilt as native academic intelligence.

Sorry got my lazy arse onto Google ! so the living wage is more than the NMW , surely that's arse about tit ?

thehypocritesoaf - I'm all for whacking up inheritance tax and bringing in a more effective property tax too.

Me too. It's iniquitous that inherited wealth is taxed less than earned wealth. It should absolutely be the other way around. Ditto property and investment gains.

Although I strongly suspect that those with well paid jobs don't have the luxury of spending much time on mumsnet during working hours. I would hazard a guess that they are totally under-represented.

Well, I generally wouldn't, but bring nearly 39 weeks pregnant I find myself with slightly more free time...

Much of it is indeed can and don't. You see that where I live in London and the striving immigrant parents around me.

(Some people do pay 60% tax on the margins by the way now because they lose the whole single person allowance).

I have never looked down on anyone in my life. Even in my teens a lto of my research was about routes to happiness and I've always known it did not relate to earnings. I just came in from the garden where I was in the sun with just about nothing on doing yoga. Those are the sorts of things that make me happy, not the money I earn although I very much enjoy my work too and I like earning a lot of money. My teenage thoughts about the planet etc they are the same I have now. You can be happy in nature with a hut as long as you have food and warmth. As for what will be sensible in 200 years time - we all know the best thing for the planet is if humans are no longer on it. It's all pretty relative.

I remember 99% upper tax rate in the UK and it didn't work. If tax gets too high people work less. When more than half was being taken from my NHS worker brother he stopped working on Sundays for a time as why not see your children so the state can take half your income? It tipped the balance. We have a big problem with productivity in the UK. A lot of people work just a few hours.

frumpet oohh what do you do? I think caring roles are now considered to be the last to go - but I have my doubts, after all robot carers can be there all the time rather than the 15 mins the council will pay for....

grazia why is a lot of people working a few hours better than a few people working all the hours?

Low productivity is the future! High productivity is totally unsustainable...we are just cashing out ahead of the crowd!

sorry that should say 'why isn't a lot of people working a few hours better than a few working all the hours...'

Many immigrant groups are only here because they had the get up and go (literally) to move so far in order to succeed

As an immigrant, I'd agree with this.

But really - yes, people who leave their home countries in search of advancement of some sort or another are generally already demonstrating certain qualities and values.

Harold Wilson talked about the "white heat of technology" meaning all those in those awful jobs mining coal etc and in factories could leave all that behind, work just a few hours a week and all would be well in the utopia of the 1970s or whatever. It has not quite worked out like that.

"grazia why is a lot of people working a few hours better than a few people working all the hours?" The reason the state wants more productivity is to help us deal with spending a lot mroe than we have coming in and the disastrous state of the finances even under the Coalition. We are almost now back to what was traditionally full employment in the UK. We could do with more people working longer hours because very very few people arel ike me and the barrister on the thread earning a lot so you cannot really get a lot of money out of richer people because there are hadly any of them. So you need to do deeply unpopular things which affect loads of people like stripping many mumsnetters of all their child benefit or reducing tax credits in order to enable the state to keep going. As for whether we could all strip back, be self sufficient etc etc that certainly appeals to me. I had my own island for 10 years in Panama. We did a lot of wonderful survival stuff on there and I really don't think if I had to I would have a problem with having very very little. I doubt most people in the UK would like it very much though.

Although I strongly suspect that those with well paid jobs don't have the luxury of spending much time on mumsnet during working hours. I would hazard a guess that they are totally under-represented

Like Jassy, I'm 40 weeks + 2 (grr) so a bit more posting time on my hands right now!

We have a big problem with productivity in the UK. A lot of people work just a few hours

Although excessive hours aren't always (or even often) linked to increased labour productivity in the sense of outputs per hour worked.

Would the output of my role be higher if it were performed by two people doing 30-35 hours a week each? It is very possible.

We do have low productivity figures compared to other countries, but that is calculated as output per hour of work (or something like that!) so it's not down to part-time working (apart from an effect if you think part time working is inherently less efficient).

Oh, Binky, don't say that! I am willing this baby out now. An extra 10 days hold no attraction for me...