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Original poster

To wonder why so many Scottish people a thrilled when England do badly at sport?

349 replies

Jollyphonics · 04/10/2015 14:02

I'm not bothered about the rugby at all personally, but this is irritating me. I have several Scottish friends, and their Facebook newsfeeds are full of gloating about England being knocked out of the world cup. It's a recurring theme with all sporting contests - mant Scottish people will support some random team from a country they've never heard of, if they're playing against England. I don't see the same with Wales and Ireland. Why is this? Is there that much resentment?

OP posts:
jorahmormont · 04/10/2015 17:47

People underestimate the Welsh Not business. It wasn't just 'told to speak differently at school'. These people didn't speak Welsh. My own FIL is in his 50s and didn't speak a word of English until he went to secondary school; he had to learn it as a second language. Most kids in the area I grew up in learn English as a second language at school, and at the time of the Welsh Not, it was even more pronounced - most families would never use English in any situation, so these children were spoken to in school in a language they didn't understand, their parents didn't understand, their peers didn't understand - and they'd be punished for not understanding it, and punished for speaking Welsh in and out of the classroom. It wasn't just a 'language rule', it was an attempt to strip away the national identity.

I know it's not hugely relevant to this discussion, but when people assume it's just a case of 'Oh they had to chat in English rather than Welsh', it's important.

And I say all of this as someone who was born in England (although I consider my national identity to be British first, Welsh second).

EastMidsMummy · 04/10/2015 17:50

The point is, English sports players or sports fans didn't do this.

myotherusernameisbetter · 04/10/2015 17:52

Maybe sometimes it's just down to getting something over on the "big" guy? The populations of Scotland, Wales and NI totalled equal roughly 15% of the UK population. I appreciate for Rugby the Irish play as a joint North and South team but that's so relevant for the purposes of the OP.

It probably also explains why so much of the media etc is so English centric as the vast majority of it's audience are English. It doesn't make it any more palatable to the minorities though.

I'd also like to apologise to those who haven't felt welcome in Scotland, it is a disgrace - I haven't witnessed anything like that where I live and we have the league of all Nations in our street. I think taking other Nations (Italian, SA, Indian, Saudie, NZ, Aus) out of the equation, we are probably left with 50/50 Scots/English.

wasonthelist · 04/10/2015 17:53

EastmidsMummy - YY to your post about various people being "oppressed". As I've mentioned on here before - I (English) was once harrangued by some particularly unpleasant "Irish" Americans over my starring role in the Irish potato famine. Fine (although it is taking a while to get over it) except I know for certain my ancestors were illiterate farm workers and miners with no vote - how exactly in the name of flip was the Spud famine their fault (and therefore mine?).

OP - I don't like that chippy Anyone But England stuff - a Kiwi girlfriend of mine had it, but I don't expect it to die off anytime soon, and truth is, I don't care about any spectator sports.

Atathania · 04/10/2015 17:54

Actually, England won the Rugby World Cup last year. But no one cares about how well the women do.

The thing I find bizarre is how many people being spectacularly sore winners at England's (deserved) defeat were born in England, live in England, have never lived anywhere else but as soon as the rugby rolls around magically have anything-but-English ancestry. There is a woman from my old school whose grandfather was born in Wales and this, apparently, makes her ¾ Welsh. I still can't work out how she came to that conclusion. And yet they're all English where the football is concerned. Convenient.

I will say this: the real supporters - and it goes for any sport - enjoy the game for the game and are looking forward to some cracking rugby still to come. This tournament so far has been a belter - if Japan can qualify it's going to be very exciting indeed and I think everyone will be behind them regardless of their own allegiances.

chrome100 · 04/10/2015 17:56

Because Scottish people have a massive chip on their shoulder about the fact that a million years ago the English fought them and they have never really got over it.

tableanadchairs · 04/10/2015 17:57

I think that the mindset is Scotland know they have little chance of winning and taking part is the main thing-plus we can laugh at ourselves Grin England go in expecting to win and when they don't it is seen as a national disaster.

Liquoricetwirl · 04/10/2015 17:58

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Atathania · 04/10/2015 17:58

Also Wales absolutely deserved their win over England. In the last 20 minutes. I know many people try to rewrite it as a bravura performance but the first 60 minutes were a shower of shite. Their scrums are going to need some serious work before the quarters.

grimbletart · 04/10/2015 17:58

www.theguardian.com/sport/2007/nov/25/features.sport8

For those insisting union is a toffs' game it might be worth looking at this link. It's from 2007 and it wasn't true even then. You only have to look at the numbers of players who have switched from League to Union (and some the other way) to give the lie to this.

Congrats to Wales and Australia for their wins. Well deserved and good luck in the tourney. Love to see Wales win. I'm English by the way.

Those who call the English team arrogant when they win. Are you thinking of anyone/thing in particular? I don't remember Martin Johnson or Jonny Wilkinson being arrogant (for example) when we beat Australia in 2003.

tilliebob · 04/10/2015 17:59

Nodded along with most of the comments on here especially re arrogance and the media in the South, but mostly I agree with everything fluffyears said also Scottish

2rebecca · 04/10/2015 18:01

Completely agree with tableandchairs.
Particularly the UK media (who in sporting events turn in to the English media) expect England to win with predictable hype beforehand and hand wringing afterwards.
In Scotland it's more "oh we're still in " then "shame, we're out now, it was fun whilst it lasted"

jorahmormont · 04/10/2015 18:01

I know that EastMids and I didn't say it was the sports fans - I'm just saying there's a lot of misinformation on the thread about the extent of the oppression.

Welsh people don't actually shag sheep, strange though it may seem, but it doesn't stop some a lot of English fans saying it, does it? It's on both sides.

derxa · 04/10/2015 18:01

if Japan can qualify it's going to be very exciting indeed and I think everyone will be behind them regardless of their own allegiances.
Not really.

grimbletart · 04/10/2015 18:02

Had little tongue in check chuckle though at this

"The Wales squad includes 11 foreign-born players, nine of them Englishmen, who have qualified to play for the team through residency or ancestry, making it one of the most cosmopolitan squads in the tournament."

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/rugby-world-cup/11892543/England-v-Wales-I-say-boyo-are-you-sure-that-youre-Welsh.html

Binkybix · 04/10/2015 18:07

Now I'm not an expert at all, so it's a genuine question. How are the English arrogant in winning/defeat? And are they more so than, for example, Australia?

myotherusernameisbetter · 04/10/2015 18:07

It must have been a difficult day in England then when Scotland played Japan? Uppity bogfaced Scots v's war atrocities against ancestors. Let me guess, no, it wasn't a difficult day as actually you couldn't have given a toss and rightly so. Support Japan all you want. Scotland is just glad that we've managed to win a couple of games. England being out means we don't have to potentially face them in the next round which I guess most weren't looking forward to. We've got £10 on Australia anyway at 10/1 (placed last year) so I know where my loyalties lie :o

Bubblesinthesummer · 04/10/2015 18:08

Taught in more schools, yes, but rugby clubs are still very much middle-class institutions.

Certainly not in my experience. My family are very heavily involved in the sport and we are anything but 'middle-class'

Each to their own experiences.

Lordamighty · 04/10/2015 18:16

I was at the England Wales game & I can assure you that there was no arrogance among the supporters. We were hopeful & excited but never thought it would be an easy game. Afterwards, all the English supporters I spoke to had nothing but praise for the passion & determination of the Welsh team.

Organisation wise, England, Wales & Australia should never have been put in the position of one of them not qualifying from the group. It is bad for the competition as a whole for the host nation to go out so early.

Shutthatdoor · 04/10/2015 18:19

Organisation wise, England, Wales & Australia should never have been put in the position of one of them not qualifying from the group. It is bad for the competition as a whole for the host nation to go out so early

Completely agree. Plus add Fiji into the mix and you have 4 teams in the top 8 in the world in one group.

myotherusernameisbetter · 04/10/2015 18:21

Completely agree. Plus add Fiji into the mix and you have 4 teams in the top 8 in the world in one group.

Yes but the draw was done based on the rankings at the time - based on those rankings the teams were rated and the draw was made. The organisers don't have a crystal ball to tell them what the rankings are going to be like at the actual competition.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 04/10/2015 18:22

I thought I heard one of the commentators say that no host country has ever gone out of the RWC in the pool stages - so I suspect if it had been hosted in Scotland, we would have been just as downcast at going out in the pool stages.

myotherusernameisbetter · 04/10/2015 18:24

SDTG - we would have expected to go out in the pool stages - most of us think it's a miracle that we are actually playing in the world cup! :o

Shutthatdoor · 04/10/2015 18:25

Yes but the draw was done based on the rankings at the time - based on those rankings the teams were rated and the draw was made

Correct. Maybe the draws shouldn't be done 3 years before the actual competition?

myotherusernameisbetter · 04/10/2015 18:30

Maybe not, but that's not the point - that's why the teams were in the same group so there isn't really a reason to gripe about that now and say they shouldn't be in the same group - why should they be treated any differently to any other team?

Maybe as hosts England should have been given a free ride straight to the final but that's not the rules of the competition though is it?

Surely it makes it more exciting and gets you more match ready when you are actually playing against teams that are more evenly matched?