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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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to think being a paedophile isn't a crime?

999 replies

KissingFish · 30/09/2015 11:04

I see posts from people both on here and other places (Facebook) about how paedophiles should all be killed and confusing the terms paedophile and child molester / child abuser.

They're not the same thing and honestly I don't think being a paedophile is a crime. It is a sexual orientation that nobody chooses to be born with. The same way people are born straight or gay.

Just because someone is a paedophile it doesn't mean they have acted on it and so it doesn't mean they are a child molester.

Surely if we all accepted that paedophilia is a sexual orientation we could help these people before they commit a crime. Before they act on it. I bet there are a LOT more paedophiles out there than we know about. They just don't act on it because they know it's wrong to act on it.

I am of course not saying being sexually attracted to children is a good thing or that it should ever be OK to act on it. No way. Just that I don't think people choose to be a paedophile and it must be pretty scary to realise you are attracted to children. Much the same way it used to be about being gay. And I don't imagine you can just ask friends, family or many people actually for help and advice.

I think in order to deal with a problem you need to understand it first.

I am willing to be convinced otherwise though if anyone has a good argument?

Disclaimer: I am not a paedophile, I just don't believe they are all evil.

OP posts:
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 30/09/2015 17:17

This was my experience, as a child it was confusing and scary but I didn't understand, only as an adult, after discussing with my partner about a documentary we'd watch where children were forced to undergo camps did the feelings and memories come back and I realised i'd been abused. It hits you very hard.

This exactly. As a child you just don't see it in the same way as a teen//adult.

Elendon · 30/09/2015 17:18

Forgot

levels of abuse (that ole chestnut)

LurkingHusband · 30/09/2015 17:20

Elendon

Lurking I thought you wanted to have an intelligent discussion about thinking about child abuse being made a crime. Or have you forgotten that?

I'd be delighted Smile. My question is simply how can you make thinking about anything a crime ? Writing it. Yes. Speaking it. Yes. Drawing it. Yes. Arranging matches in obscene layouts. Yes.

But how can you criminalise thought alone ?

I was very deliberate in my quoting Elizabeth I. "I do not seek to make windows into mens souls". The point being as long as people obey the law, then what they think is no ones business but their own.

People need to be very careful about criminalising thought. There are already laws on the statute books making it illegal to think certain thoughts (I bet no one here knows which laws). We need fewer of these, not more.

OfaFrenchmind2 · 30/09/2015 17:20

ItsAllGoingToBeFine so what is your point actually? The damage is done, the crime is done. The victim, be them 6 or 18, will still suffer extreme anguish, loss of trust, metal health problem....

Should we mitigate it because it is a time bomb?

Elendon · 30/09/2015 17:22

This exactly. As a child you just don't see it in the same way as a teen//adult. Talking for ALL children are we?

Dismiss this

This was my experience, as a child it was confusing and scary but I didn't understand, only as an adult, after discussing with my partner about a documentary we'd watch where children were forced to undergo camps did the feelings and memories come back and I realised i'd been abused. It hits you very hard.

post if you want to. But, GET THIS, some children do know and are aware, they just put it away because they have to.

Elendon · 30/09/2015 17:23

Lurking

I said 'intelligent'.

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 17:24

I don't believe there are levels of abuse as such however there are most certainly differing types of abuse that impact in different ways.

Someone viewing pictures of my child sexually would totally fuck me up but my child would never know unless I told him. He would be indirectly affected by me being fucked up by it though

Someone physically abusing him would fuck us both up directly

amarmai · 30/09/2015 17:24

The Martijn Foundation has tried thru different legal actions to have sex with children made legal. Their latest was rejected again in 2014 at the European Court of Human Rights . Question is whose human rights? I notice that some of those who were pushing hardest for the human rights of pedophiles are now softening their tone and being all understanding of the parents who are soo against this pedophile thing .Guess there's going to be some name changing soon.

Elendon · 30/09/2015 17:25

But lurking that's fine.

Could you start a new thread?

Elendon · 30/09/2015 17:28

hairbrush,

They are not looking at pictures of children taken in the park.

Plus once the images are out there...your child will grow up to be an adult.

You knew but didn't tell.

All sorts of physical and mental reactions could happen to him on such a knowledge, penile erection dysfunction being the least of it.

lilycabbagerocks · 30/09/2015 17:30

This reply has been deleted

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MySordidCakeSecret · 30/09/2015 17:31

No Itsall I wasn't validating your post at all. Your post described "low level" sexual abuse as not being harmful at that time to the child, and they didn't know it was wrong.

I did know it was wrong. It was extremely scary and stressful.

deadwitchproject · 30/09/2015 17:34

Holy shit indeed. Never thought I would see so much explanation about and understanding and compassion towards paedophiles on a parenting site.

lilycabbagerocks · 30/09/2015 17:36

mysordidcake...

Having read the latest post from itisallfine, I am shocked he is using your experience of abuse to AGAIN tell us that you only understand it as abuse when you are older. This is simply not true.

Children are deeply scarred and traumatised by child abuse THE MOMENT IT HAPPENS.

They do NOT have some kind of delayed reaction until they are older and realise what has happened to them, unless they are very very young, and even toddlers know when something hurts and isn't right.

I think your posts are deeply disturbing itisallfine, and yet you continue to post them and are now using child abuse victims as a way to belt out your narrative to the MN audience. Disgraceful.

leedy · 30/09/2015 17:37

"You sexually abuse a child, you're a pedophile. Simple."

Well no, and I think conflating the two is a bad idea.

A paedophile is someone who has a sexual attraction to children, and may or may not act on it (and if they act on it are, of course, a child abuser). But there are also child abusers who aren't necessarily sexually attracted to children per se, who just want to control or hurt someone smaller than them, or who get a thrill out of doing something really "wrong". The acts and the damage done may be similar but the motivation (and thus maybe how you might prevent them from harming people) is different.

MySordidCakeSecret · 30/09/2015 17:38

depressing isn't it deadwitch. And yes Elendon myself and many others put it away because you feel unable to tell an adult, such is the way abuse operates.

Thelushinthepub · 30/09/2015 17:39

I'm absolutely gobsmacked at the Lolita relationships being implied between sex offenders and their victims whereby the victim feels loved and romanticised. That may happen occasionally. That certainly isn't the Norm and no idea what anyone would think it is.

MySordidCakeSecret · 30/09/2015 17:40

it is disgusting yes. It'sfine is twisting my post. If I have to explain in more detail then I will, i've dealt with it now and i'm not having people like that minimise child sexual abuse.

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 17:40

They are not looking at pictures of children taken in the park.
**
Plus once the images are out there...your child will grow up to be an adult.

Elendon I am clearly not referring to images of children taken in the park.

It has been in headlines in recent years that nursery teachers have taken naked pictures of their charges. I leave my son at nursery everyday and trust that this is not happening however it is potentially possible and would fuck me up should it ever occur to a child of mine. However I see him naked all the time and being 3 he's a fan of stripping off. If his beloved nursery teachers suggested it im sure he'd oblige

I'm assuming my own child will not grow up to be an adult who chooses to go looking for photos of naked children or even just their body parts and therefore if I didn't tell he wouldn't know.

There are of course photos out there of acts being committed on children and this would impact directly and more obviously on him.

trian · 30/09/2015 17:42

have read your post but no time to read all the replies sorry.

sexual orientation is a morally neutral thing, it really doesn't help victims trying to repair their relationship to sex to put paedophilia in the same bracket as homo/bi/heterosexuality. Better to think of it as a mental condition like sociopathy i think.

there was an interesting 30min documentary on radio 4 a few months ago that made many of the points you do, and also looked into the support groups that non-active paedophiles have set up online, so that they can support each other in abstaining from offending. Unfortunately they also included quite a bit on the rarer form of abuse; a stranger kidnapping, abusing and then killing a child. This is why so many parents curtail their children's freedom to such a negative extent, and yet it's sooooo much more likely that it's someone that isn't a stranger that's abusing them.

you're absolutely right, unless we approach the problem with an enquiring mind, we won't solve it and at worst we'll drive it even deeper underground. The majority of people will rant and rave or bottle out of facing the issue, a tiny minority realise that if you truly understand the problem, you have to be willing to pick up on signs from any child (even a "wayward" child, as so many of the victims in the grooming rings that have come to light recently were) that any adult/child is abusing them. This includes your husband, your son, your grandma, anyone. As I understand it, in the vast majority of cases, there was someone (or many people) who'd never have believed that the molester was an molester. Obviously I know lots of people who'd I'd be surprised to learn were molesters, but this doesn't mean that I'd ignore the signs from a child that told/hinted that they were, but that's cos i've done that difficult work in mind of facing the reality of the situation.

Obviously a lot of work needs to be done with children who maliciously accuse, they need to be shown the impact that their lies have on the children who are being abused - how it makes it harder for them to get people to believe them (and of course there will be some crossover between these 2 groups).

It's a good point you made about the language, a paedophile is not necessarily a molester. I wouldn't use the term child abuser, as some child abusers just abuse mentally or with physical violence.

The way we deal with this has got to move forward, with the needs of children being paramount. Any non-active paedophile who genuinely cares about not acting on their urges would surely be willing to accept a high level of state control.

We also need to look at the active and passive enablers, those that know and look away, and those that know and take part (eg procuring children), whilst not doing any molestation themselves. How many times have I read "my mum knew it was happening but did nothing".

Elendon · 30/09/2015 17:47

Leedy

Conflating the two is an intelligent reaction.

A paedophile is not born, they are made. Their sexuality whilst developing in puberty has been thwarted. I believe it's because of previous sexual assaults or viewing them when they were children and seeing it as the norm. It's just now that we see this as being an 'innate' thing. It's not. It's social conditioning. Thankfully, most of us are not like this. Thankfully, most of those involved in sexual abuse are not like this.

Saying paedophilia is innate is like saying that a child who murders another child is a natural born killer.

leedy · 30/09/2015 17:50

I didn't actually say it was innate, I just said that my understanding is that there are child abusers who aren't actually sexually attracted to children. I think that awful Lostprophets man is a prime example, he seemed to just revel in the sort of "badness" of it rather than actually finding kids attractive.

lilycabbagerocks · 30/09/2015 17:51

Kissingfish...

So back to your original post. In short:

I think most agree on this site reading through the posts that paedophilia is not about sexual orientation it is a sexual disorder, a pathological disorder which is not in the range of 'normal' and could never be considered to be normal or accepted.

The definition of A Paedophile is someone who is attracted to children accepted, if not acted on this is still a cause for concern and help must be sought. If you view images or abuse a child this is crime and you will be prosecuted.

We are all agreed more help and solutions are required for people battling with this insidious disorder. Voluntary castration, medication and other options should be standard and available easily. Paedophiles will never be an accepted part of our society, but there should be more funding to deal with them in a way that makes a difference.

In raising this issue from an angle of sympathy, it has caused a great deal of harm on this website to many who have suffered child abuse, I am not totally sure this was the right place to bring such a conversation.

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 17:51

'm absolutely gobsmacked at the Lolita relationships being implied between sex offenders and their victims whereby the victim feels loved and romanticised. That may happen occasionally. That certainly isn't the Norm and no idea what anyone would think it is.

Thelush this is usually how it is portrayed on soaps... Who I thought the writers were meant to have researched and be raising awareness by covering that sort of storyline which I think is where that comes from. My own experience (not me, a friend) was certainly that type of relationship where she felt very special and even proud for a time, it was found out purely because she bragged about it to friends. Iv no doubt it haunts her now she's an adult, she testified at his trial

trian · 30/09/2015 17:51

amarmai

The Martijn Foundation, have looked but can't find, can you post a link?