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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

to think being a paedophile isn't a crime?

999 replies

KissingFish · 30/09/2015 11:04

I see posts from people both on here and other places (Facebook) about how paedophiles should all be killed and confusing the terms paedophile and child molester / child abuser.

They're not the same thing and honestly I don't think being a paedophile is a crime. It is a sexual orientation that nobody chooses to be born with. The same way people are born straight or gay.

Just because someone is a paedophile it doesn't mean they have acted on it and so it doesn't mean they are a child molester.

Surely if we all accepted that paedophilia is a sexual orientation we could help these people before they commit a crime. Before they act on it. I bet there are a LOT more paedophiles out there than we know about. They just don't act on it because they know it's wrong to act on it.

I am of course not saying being sexually attracted to children is a good thing or that it should ever be OK to act on it. No way. Just that I don't think people choose to be a paedophile and it must be pretty scary to realise you are attracted to children. Much the same way it used to be about being gay. And I don't imagine you can just ask friends, family or many people actually for help and advice.

I think in order to deal with a problem you need to understand it first.

I am willing to be convinced otherwise though if anyone has a good argument?

Disclaimer: I am not a paedophile, I just don't believe they are all evil.

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 30/09/2015 14:57

You're probably right, LurkingHusband. It's a pity, as there is a potentially useful/thoughtful/interesting discussion hiding in here under all the ranting.

We could always start our own thread Smile .

Of course the sad thing is, people who would exercise power over others see the naked hysteria that can be whipped up so easily by being "careless" with words, and can easily manipulate whole sections of the less discerning members of society. This thread being exhibit A.

Booyaka · 30/09/2015 15:00

ItsAllGoing I think you underestimate how sophisticated some of the pro lobby is and how developed some of their methods are. They have watched how things like being gay have become acceptable over the years and learned from that.

I think we all know that if in the early 50s somebody had called for, not only gay sex to be legalised, but also for gay marriage, gay adoption and anti-discrimination laws they would have been dismissed as crackpots out to destroy society. But now we have all those (wonderful) things.

The pro lobby are using similar tactics as they know if they just start demanding the age of consent to four it won't work. They fully intend a process of 'softening up' and making paedophilia seem acceptable in stages. I have seen similar on other forums and this looks the same.

.

leedy · 30/09/2015 15:02

Do you genuinely think that some of the posters here are from a pro-paedophile lobby/have been "taken in" by it?

Fourfifthsof · 30/09/2015 15:02

Itsallgoingtobefine I understand the argument to separate the inclination from the actual act and to a certain extent I can see how this would be helpful in terms of getting people to come forward for treatment.

Again - comes back to treatment for me though - treatment isn't needed for sexual orientation, treatment is needed for illness.

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 15:03

That being said, I personally will never see paedophilla as anything but a potential risk and should not be accepted or treated as homo/bisexuality.

I think that's a sensible viewpoint that most share. A paedophile should always be considered a potential risk.

I have experienced dark thoughts with my own mental health at a time in my life and worried I would harm someone. I'm glad my thoughts were socially acceptable enough for me to seek help from a mental health service and voluntarily commit myself to hospital to prevent myself from harming someone as a result of those thoughts. I wish paedophiles could do the same. My mental health posed a risk to myself and others therefore I could get help...

It should never be downgraded from a potential risk. I don't think offering treatment will mean nobody believes there's any risk

OfaFrenchmind2 · 30/09/2015 15:03

ItsAllGoing Just because I see you are back, would you like to comment on what you said earlier regarding what constitutes abuse and what does not? Apparently for you, mutual masturbation and oral sex with a child does not make a paedophile a child abuser, but please quote yourself again and show me where I misunderstood.

Booyaka · 30/09/2015 15:04

Have a google for the Martijn Foundation and attempts to normalise paedophilia by finding platforms where it can be discussed as a normal sexual orientation.

leedy · 30/09/2015 15:07

"Apparently for you, mutual masturbation and oral sex with a child does not make a paedophile a child abuser, but please quote yourself again and show me where I misunderstood."

Not wishing to put words in ItsAllGoing's mouth (as it were) but I believe what they were saying was that IN A PAEDOPHILE'S MIND frequently masturbation and oral sex would be considered ok/nice things to do with a child because it would not physically injure the child, while intercourse would potentially injure the child and so would not be ok.

Obviously NOT IN A PAEDOPHILE'S MIND any form of sexual contact with a child is child abuse because they cannot consent to it, and at no point did ItsAllGoing say that it wasn't child abuse, I've no idea where that's coming from. He/she was trying to explain their thought processes, not condone or encourage them.

Aeroflotgirl · 30/09/2015 15:07

rax he obviously was abusing children, if SS and those agencies were involved, your prerogative, I could not invite a known paedophile into my children's home, their place of safety. Meet them outside the home, without kids, but no not in my kids home.

LurkingHusband · 30/09/2015 15:08

Itsmine

Oh lurkinghusband if we are all too thick for you

I didn't say that. But if you want to prove my point for me, then go ahead. [irony]

, why don't you go and find that far more intellectually stimulating thread then?

Actually I can do both. But it can be more fun here. Certainly less time spent looking up words I don't know.

It's a waste of time having any debate, about any subject, be it reform of the Corn Laws, or have society best deals with sexual criminality, without having an agreed definition of the terms involved. I even suggested as much upthread.

So it seems we have a lot of people screaming quite vociferously, that the problem with dogs, is that they don't purr or catch mice.

TaliZorahVasNormandy · 30/09/2015 15:08

Also what would happen if they did go for treatment, it didnt work. I say this as a woman who had therapy for PND and social anxiety. It only helped me when I actually studied, therapy and psychology myself and actually worked out my own brain.

Understanding of our own minds and why we think they way we do is a life long tool.

ghostyslovesheep · 30/09/2015 15:09

But no one here is attempting to normalise or excuse abuse Confused just rationally discuss paedophilia and abuse and the fact they are not always the same thing

Put in very simple term paedophiles are motivated by sexual desire (by definition) child abusers are not - like rapist - motivated by sex alone

No one is saying the actual abuse of children is ever okay

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 15:09

I don't doubt there are paedophiles who wish it was acceptable to act on their impulses. I don't doubt there are child abusers who want sex with children to be normalised. I don't think most mothers on MN will wish to start googling paedophile exchange groups or paraphanalia.

I don't think this thread is referring to those people, but rather those who have a sexual attraction towards children and are thoroughly ashamed of it and wish they could rid themselves of it. Or perhaps also those who know its wrong yet feel helpless to it.

ghostyslovesheep · 30/09/2015 15:10

And of course it makes a difference in both how you treat and prevent and how you protect children

leedy · 30/09/2015 15:11

"Put in very simple term paedophiles are motivated by sexual desire (by definition) child abusers are not - like rapist - motivated by sex alone"

Yes, I assume, eg, soldiers who rape children in war etc. are not all paedophiles, it's to do with hurt and control.

BrandNewAndImproved · 30/09/2015 15:11

I've worked in a young offenders for a few months.

There were children in there for abusing other children and the staff treated them like shit. All the children in there had been sexually abused themselves by parents/family members and were imo so damaged by their childhoods that their brains didn't work right and in turn they acted it back out.

That's not to say they anyone who gets abused turns into an abuser but there are links. These dc needed help and love.

leedy · 30/09/2015 15:11

"I don't think this thread is referring to those people, but rather those who have a sexual attraction towards children and are thoroughly ashamed of it and wish they could rid themselves of it. Or perhaps also those who know its wrong yet feel helpless to it."

Exactly.

PeterTavy · 30/09/2015 15:12

A Head of Department at my children's secondary school was married with young kids, highly educated, "respectable", had spoken at conferences and to newspapers on education issues, though did wear tight trousers which left little to the imagination at the front IYSWIM.

He was convicted of possessing 1000's of images of kids aged 3 upwards, including in the worst possible category, making and distributing images and was only caught/ prosecuted because he was caught by undercover officers in a chatroom saying he would be prepared to act on his fantasies.

He apparently viewed images in the morning before coming to school and was arrested when away with Year 7's (including my own DC) on a camping trip unrelated to his subject.
I feel SO SO sorry for his family, but have no sympathy, only revulsion, for the years he must have spent looking in a sexual way at kids, including mine.
The school has not mentioned it either to parents or children since his arrest which left 1 of my DC quite confused as they liked him as a teacher. It was as if nothing had happened.

In mitigation as his trial was the fact he had not physically touched a child.

Since he didn't actually physically abuse a child, only fantasised and looked at images, do you think that's okay? Does he just have a joint strasight/ paedophile orientation?

Perhaps I may have been more understanding before having kids who have unwittingly spent many hours in the company of a paedophile.

I wonder how many paedophiles who don't overtly act on their urges nevertheless look at images online as this man did?

BrandNewAndImproved · 30/09/2015 15:13

Rape is nothing to do with sex rape is about hurting someone and taking something away from them. It's not motivated by sexual desire. If someone was going to rape you it wouldn't matter how much you were covered up and unattractive you looked they'd still rape you anyway.

leedy · 30/09/2015 15:16

"I wonder how many paedophiles who don't overtly act on their urges nevertheless look at images online as this man did?"

In the radio show/article thing I referred to upthread, the young man explicitly tried to stop looking at child abuse images, he recognized that they were also abuse of children even if he didn't abuse them himself. So it's not the case that all paedophiles definitely view them even if they don't touch children, it would be part of "acting on their urges".

Obviously I'm sure there are people who don't abuse children themselves but do use such images, and I agree that that's also harmful.

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 15:19

*Also what would happen if they did go for treatment, it didnt work. I say this as a woman who had therapy for PND and social anxiety. It only helped me when I actually studied, therapy and psychology myself and actually worked out my own brain.

Understanding of our own minds and why we think they way we do is a life long tool.*

Snap Tali. I had psychotic depression during pregnancy and I also feel the therapy I received really only worked once I began understanding my own brain however I did receive support to prevent myself harming myself or others by being able to be admitted to hospital. I think paedophiles should be offered that if they believe they're likely to abuse a child. And therapy before/after its got to the point of needing secure psychiatric services

Perhaps that's the whole point of therapy? To help us understand ourselves

Raxacoricofallapatorius · 30/09/2015 15:20

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had. I posted because I thought I might be able to answer some questions about what happens when paedophilia is present but abuse is not and how I, as part of this society, decided to act.

I absolutely do not take the decision to remain friends with this man lightly. I did not shrug my shoulders and accept it. I didn't celebrate it or greet it in anything other than abject shock. It was months until I saw him again, my choice.

However, I had to make a decision and I had to make this decision based upon a number of factors. What does his decision to declare this and ask for help, actually tell me about him? His sole act with reference to paedophilia is to admit something which he could have left hidden. He asked for complete and total honesty and asked people to reject him immediately (I'm sure many did). I had to consider that my DH works with the investigation and prosecution of abusers. I know, absolutely that child abuse happens because people either don't know somebody is a threat or they don't accept somebody is a threat. I know DH has been utterly heartbroken by cases where a man, a father, a husband has turned out to be the most despicable of characters and has done the most terrible things. He is everything you have just cause to judge in a criminal of this nature: deceitful, dishonest, abusive, depraved, opportunistic, calculated, manipulative, abhorrent. Judge him by his actions and he is where he belongs, in prison, probably for the rest of his natural life actually. But then there's my friend. A man who our family has known for 30 years. A man who decided to be honest about something and give people free choice.

Do I trust him to be alone with my children? Never. Do I look at him the same as I did before? No. Do I accept, minimise or justify this as 'acceptable' as a sexual attraction? Never, it should always be identified, treated and safeguarded against. Every person should have the opportunity to say no to that man's presence in their life.

But what has actually changed? He's been honest. He is still the same man he ever was. I'm tempted to say I admire his honesty but that's the wrong word. I'm glad of it.

I'm probably more vigilant around him than other men, how could I not be? He knows it, he expects it. The alternative was to shun him, to turn him into something he is not. Would that have helped him fight this? Would it have helped anything? No.

I think in retrospect - and I've had years to think about this now - the only difference is that I know something that is true of him that could be true of any man in my life. My children are safer for my knowing I think. He's chosen honesty and it will mean he is reviled, shunned and abused for something he hasn't done but something he is. He gave me an opportunity I suppose, to know who he truly is. I wish the world was black and white and that paedophilia mean you were a certain type of person. However, I know that it's not true.

Does it also mean that I would invite any or all paedophiles into my house? Nope. Does it mean that if other people who were close to my children admitted they were paedophiles, I'd keep them in my life? No. I should point out that this man is not close to my children (we knew about his paedophilia before we had children), the Christmas Days to which I referred are not him coming round and cuddling up on the sofa with my children and we all pretend it's not a thing. He drops in for a glass of mulled wine or a coffee along with a host of other people. He stays for half an hour, wishes us all the best, we wish him all the best. He brings his children and grandchildren with him. He's not a weird block in a mac we install in the corner of family occasions and pat ourselves on the back because we're right on and oh so brilliantly liberal. This was a conscious decision and one that I do not take lightly in the slightest.

Gottagetmoving · 30/09/2015 15:21

You can try to understand something without ever condoning it.
Those thinking that 'they' have got to us or to 'society' are paranoid.

I think we all know that if in the early 50s somebody had called for, not only gay sex to be legalised, but also for gay marriage, gay adoption and anti-discrimination laws they would have been dismissed as crackpots out to destroy society. But now we have all those (wonderful) things.
The pro lobby are using similar tactics as they know if they just start demanding the age of consent to four it won't work. They fully intend a process of 'softening up' and making paedophilia seem acceptable in stages. I have seen similar on other forums and this looks the same

That statement is assuming gay sex can be compared to sex with a child!!
It is not the same and people cannot be 'softened up' to accept it.
Heterosexuals and Gay people are not allowed to have sex with a minor. Changing the law on paedophiles would mean allowing sex with a child!

LurkingHusband · 30/09/2015 15:21

Put in very simple term paedophiles are motivated by sexual desire (by definition) child abusers are not - like rapist - motivated by sex alone

Too simple though. It's not the case.

Paedophilia, is (something like) "sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children.". It is (by definition) something that cannot be "seen" in it's purest form - like gravity.

The only way we can know paedophilia exists, is when it has an effect in the real world. Just like - wait for it - gravity.

The OP was actually a question ... (AIBU) "...to think being a paedophile isn't a crime". Currently in the UK, the answer is there isn't any law against being a paedophile. And, unless the laws of nature are changed, there won't be anytime soon. Although I would be happy to see this thread passed onto each MNetters local MP with a suggestion it be used to add a law to the statute books making it illegal "to be a paedophile", although I'm a tad surprised there isn't one already. Maybe MPs don't really agree with it ?

I wonder why that could be ?

hairbrushbedhair · 30/09/2015 15:24

I wish lily would come back

Immature of me I know Blush