Values & manners: it doing your dcs more harm than good to teach them values & manners which are virtually redundant these days?

[DoMyBest]

I'm genuinely doubting myself and would welcome views: the more I teach my dc's a set of values & manners which I was taught (admittedly by very old parents), the more I wonder if I'm not only not helping them, but actually doing them a disservice if most of the rest of the world has a different code.
I'm going to give a few examples, but only to give you some background, not (please) to have a debate on manners and right & wrong (there are already so many of those on mn):

• I teach them to jump out of a priority seat on the bus when an old/pregnant etc person needs it. But when ds does this for an old lady, a teenager nips in front of her and both my son & old lady end up standing,

-Ds taught to stand aside & let people out of tube before pushing in only to have several men in suits then push in front of him to get one of the remaining seats & son left doing homework sitting on tube floor (a lovely woman then offered him her seat, but she was the exception to the rule), Just realised these are both public transport examples, will try to think of a few others! But my point is we're living in an increasingly dog eats dog world, are basic values like queuing, sharing, prioritising old/ill/smaller people just going to end up putting them at a disadvantage? And, if they are, what's the solution? I think I'm inching towards the answer but I'd welcome your views.

I think it's still worth teaching good manners. Other people whose opinion you respect will notice. Such a shame there are so many selfish and pushy people with no manners though.

do - I wonder about this myself

A lot of manners can be seen as being subservient - ie standing aside etc/not making a fuss. I'm not sure how far that gets you in the workplace to be honest. I am on may leave but previously worked as a lawyer in a large international firm. On the face of it, everyone was very polite - holding open doors etc. however, the people who did best in their careers were the people who could generally push themselves forward. Who weren't concerned about letting other people "have their turn" etc

It's a fine line. I think manners are important but it's also important to teach children that it's fine to also be assertive and stand your ground politely - even if that would traditionally be seen as "rude"

I can't honestly say I've spotted the sort of examples you mention. I rarely use public transport but I certainly didn't see this in trams in Amsterdam last week. If anything what happened was in crowded trams the odd spare seat wasn't used at all as the people standing were too polite to take it.

The only other public transport I use regularly is London underground and I don't see what you are describing. Your son shouldn't be doing homework on the floor of the carriage.

When the teenager sat down, did you point out that your ds had stood for the old lady? Possibly the teenager didn't see? Or was just odd. Either way, it's a situation that can very easily be managed.

On the tube, yes you must let people off first - that is an important rule. But the people waiting on the platform aren't really a 'queue' - once everyone is off it's fine to just get on. Your ds wasn't owed a seat in that situation. And it's pretty rude/dangerous to sit on the floor of the tube.

Basically, I think that it is important to follow the generally agreed social norms - priority seats are for people less able to stand, people get off the tube first. These aren't matters of politeness - they're just rules. Beyond that, I think that it's a good idea to treat other people as you would like to be treated. But of course there's no point being a doormat, nor expecting others to be a doormat for you (so your son couldn't have expected anyone to give up their seat for him on the tube, presuming he is able bodied). I think you're overthinking.

And I agree with alass - I never really see rudeness on the London transport that I use (tube and bus).

Manners and values such as you describe are going to become more and more important, I suspect, and even more of a social indicator (and thus an advantage) than they are now. Without basic manners and a respect for the elderly and people in authority, you cannot move up in life, and poorer children who are not taught them are not being given the tools to get on, I think. Better off children are at least (presumably) being given other tools to compensate (not that I think they will compensate, when push comes to shove).

A young man or woman who isn't terribly bright or well educated can still do moderately well in life if he or she has impeccable manners and good social skills.

YANBU. I was brought up with excellent manners but find that now as an adult I am constantly irritated by other people's appalling lack of consideration for others. Eg. Using mobiles on public transport, not holding the door open for the person behind you, bags taking up seats on trains etc etc. I often wish I could be oblivious to such behaviour as it sends my anxiety through the roof.

I think the manners are still massively important. But with a healthy dose of assertiveness so they aren't taken advantage of. Eg unless I'm really pushed for time, if I was in eg a queue with a few items, and the person behind is trying to juggle a crying baby and a pint of milk, I'd let them go in front of me, something dd has learnt to do. But she's also learnt that if she's in a queue and an adult pushes in front, it's ok to say 'I think I was next'.
Same for offering seats, it's fine to say 'actually I stood up for that person'.

You need to teach your kids to be assertive.

The teenager who took the seat given up for the elderly person = "Excuse me, I got up to give the seat to this person".

Same on the tube (not sure why they were doing homework) but they need to be polite and assertive.

No, basic manners are still necessary. And imo the vast majority of people don't do the things you're describing - I often use public transport in London and almost everyone waits for people to get off before getting on, and gives up their seat to elderly people etc. On a busy day, I suppose it's easy not to see the person needing the seat, so it's sensible to teach your son to wait until they are nearby and actually offer them the seat, rather than expecting everyone else to be psychic.

I don't think people have changed all that much tbh. There has always been a small minority of rude and selfish people.

Good manners aren't redundant but, like most things in life, they have to be managed. I think that your DS is still learning how apply manners. For example in the old lady / teenager scenario did he give up his seat without explanation, expecting the rest of the carriage to mind-read? He should have spoken to the old lady and agreed to give up his seat to her and not any old random. If he had that conversation, that the whole carriage could hear, then the teenager wouldn't have jumped in. Or someone might have remonstrated.
It's knowing how to apply the unwritten rules.
But please don't give up teaching him manners. Don't let him sink to other people's level.

I should also add that I agree with PPs

I live in London and use public transport 4 times a day, and yet I rarely see really bad manners being displayed.

Quite the opposite really, especially when it comes to elderly/infirm people.

Gobbolin, ditto (international law firm). But getting the fine line right on 'polite assertiveness' is so hard. That gives me another example (happened to me): you've been taught not to boast & to be modest and to ask other people questions about themselves (which you like to do anyway as it tends to be more interesting than banging on about yoyrself). So, at a work dinner with colleagues & your boss you ask colleagues about the projects they've been working on. Cue one colleague, keen to make an impression, spending most of the dinner talking about what a brilliant job he's doing & how invaluable he is to his clients. Boss, who you assume will find this a bore/a bit rude is on the contrary seriously impressed. Colleague, who's been raise totally differently to me, doesn't ask me a single question and I just can't bring myself to start boasting too.

I never really see rudeness on the London transport that I use (tube and bus).
It must have changed in the 20 yrs since I last used it regularly, then! I can remember hanging back as the conductor requested to let people off the bus, everybody else just carried on shoving on, and then the conductor said he didn't have space for me and I'd have to wait for the next bus. That said, I also had a lot of people help me with pushchairs up long flights of stairs.

As a PP said, I think it's worth teaching the balance between good manners and gentle self-assertion. If somebody is shoving rudely, it's okay not to give ground. It's a tricky one to teach (one of my DCs would gladly trample anyone annoying underfoot; another would just give them a wounded look and retreat).

If you're giving up a seat for someone, catch their eye or tap their arm gently: 'Would you like to sit down?' as you half-rise to make it clear that you mean it. That stops anyone else rushing in.

As a parent, you teach your DC the values which are important to you. My impression of you is that if you didn't teach your DC to stand for an elderly person, you would be sitting on the tube feeling embarrassed and uncomfortable because the elderly person was standing and you had done nothing to alleviate the situation. So why wouldn't you teach your DC to stand?

But you also accept that some people have different values and you can't force the whole world to be polite. you just do your bit.

Ugh. I edited my post and the entire main point of it was lost.

It was something along the lines of that when my father was growing up (very poor) manners were considered very important. So he grew up with the "tools" to not make an ass of himself in varying social situations (including professional ones obv.) as he grew up. So good manners gave his generation of poor Irish kids a substantial degree of social mobility.

It seems that increasing numbers of children, both poor and not poor, are NOT being taught these manners now, which opens them up to coming off as boorish and obnoxious and DISLIKED as they grow up, when they're not obnoxious, but their parents didn't stop to think how important manners are. So it hampers their social mobility.

Children who ARE taught to be both achingly polite and assertive are going to have an advantage in life. And as fewer children are taught this, it is going to reinforce the gaps between the classes in our society.

American children do seem to be taught manners, regardless of background. It's really noticeable there - and America is famed for its (alleged) social mobility.

I travel by public transport in London daily and I see very little rudeness and lack of consideration which is amazing considering some days there is barely room to breathe.

As for you colleague "boasting" - welcome to the real world. This is one reason why women don't get noticed in the work place. We are socialised to play our achievements down and expect our hard work to get noticed without saying anything. That is not how things work. As one male colleague once said to me "make your own publicity". If you say nothing then people will assume it is because you have nothing to say. Also remember that your successes can make your boss look good too.

I think absolutely everyone can recall at least a couple of times where they've witnessed rudeness.

But that doesn't mean the majority of people aren't polite.

I think we just remember the rude ones more because they stand out.

I very much agree with the points about assertiveness - this is not the same as bad manners. I make a conscious effort to act more 'male' in the workplace - sad that women should have to but I think it helps. In terms of assertiveness, I do agree that with the OP's premise that game theory dictates that non-assertiveness doesn't work in a system where some actors are being assertive, even though the system might work better if everyone was less assertive. I don't think of assertiveness as being the same as politeness though. I agree Americans are a great model - scrupulously polite but very good at asserting themselves, with no general perception that the two shouldn't go together.

Right. All good advice (I also have examples of wonderful public transport behaviour, and gave one, my post wasn't meant to be an attack on the modern tfl!).

But its hard to know what telling your children 'its ok to be assertive' means in practice.

Does it mean, for example, that after half an hour of a colleague waxing lyrical about themselves its not rude to interrupt them and then talk about how great you are? (I wouldn't mind the interruption as it would do the rest of the dinner party a favour, but would mind their then bragging about themselves - so cue their letting another colleague start talking about how great they are and suddenly manners have held them back from 'publicising' themselves...).

Also being assertive can lead to seriously aggressive reactions - like when I asked someone to give up his priority seat (I had a baby in a pram) & they ended up accusing me of having queue jumped them on the platform (it genuinely hadn't crossed my mind they'd think that as I'd always been taught women with babies etc had priority). 2 sons, incidentally, left confused and I had to explain that not everyone thinks women with small babies should be given special treatment & everyone has their own ways of doing things etc...

I think politeness and manners combined with a gentle dose of assertiveness are the best way.

I was brought up with manners and it's taken a while to catch up on the assertiveness. Being small and young looking I can easily be overlooked either accidentally or through rudeness, and being able to speak up and say nicely, "Excuse me, I was here first" for example when someone has pushed in front, is a useful asset in life.

I saw my DS being pushed while playing a game last week and was pleased that his response was "stop pushing me". It's to his benefit that he neither retaliated or blew it into a big issue, but also didn't let it pass unremarked.

Op raises an excellent point. I know my Mum would have done things differently. I have an over-developed sense of right and wrong and I am always saddened, disappointed and even angered when others don't live up to the standards my parents taught us.

I am similarly conflicted about my dd. I think I need to try to warn her that there are plenty of rude, agressive and plain nasty people about who will push you out of the way to get on the Tube etc, and although it's not what we think is fair or acceptable, it also seems unlikely to change anytime soon

I think in the dinner party example, it is fine to chip in to a monologue. "Oh, that's interesting that you did X, that reminds me of.... What does everyone else think of ...?"

Of course there's always a danger that you'll encounter rude people, but you can't live your life in fear of that. And honestly, I think that priority seats are for people who find it harder to stand, not people with prams, so I think you might have overstepped the line in that situation...

Does it mean, for example, that after half an hour of a colleague waxing lyrical about themselves its not rude to interrupt them and then talk about how great you are?

As I said, your DS needs to learn how to the apply the rules. If someone is rude then you don't do rude back at them. You apply humour - gentle ribbing or vicious piss-taking as the occasion demands.

do - yes! Re: your example

Also, the interminable appraisal forms. I always think that I don't have very much to put down and then find that others are noting down really quite mundane activities that I think are just part of your job as fabulous achievements!