Values & manners: it doing your dcs more harm than good to teach them values & manners which are virtually redundant these days?

[DoMyBest]

I'm genuinely doubting myself and would welcome views: the more I teach my dc's a set of values & manners which I was taught (admittedly by very old parents), the more I wonder if I'm not only not helping them, but actually doing them a disservice if most of the rest of the world has a different code.
I'm going to give a few examples, but only to give you some background, not (please) to have a debate on manners and right & wrong (there are already so many of those on mn):

• I teach them to jump out of a priority seat on the bus when an old/pregnant etc person needs it. But when ds does this for an old lady, a teenager nips in front of her and both my son & old lady end up standing,

-Ds taught to stand aside & let people out of tube before pushing in only to have several men in suits then push in front of him to get one of the remaining seats & son left doing homework sitting on tube floor (a lovely woman then offered him her seat, but she was the exception to the rule), Just realised these are both public transport examples, will try to think of a few others! But my point is we're living in an increasingly dog eats dog world, are basic values like queuing, sharing, prioritising old/ill/smaller people just going to end up putting them at a disadvantage? And, if they are, what's the solution? I think I'm inching towards the answer but I'd welcome your views.

Blinky she lets her child blow out other people's birthday candles?! That's just cruel!
Kevin agreed you're not doing your job if you just serve coffee/wine instead of talking business: but I'm capable of doing both (because I had it drummed into me to keep conversations flowing whilst making sure guests are looked after) and I'm hoping ds's will be able to also (gulp, no pressure).

What would you teach your child otherwise? To butt in and fight in this dog eat dog world? No. Children need manners drummed into them well from the beginning. Then when they are older then can learn assertiveness. Its your job to be assertive on their behalf when they are little. (But still teaching them manners!).

Most manners tell you to sit down, move out of the way, make yourself small and be quiet. They are largely an exercise in subservience.

I won't be teaching my children these skills. I have taught them to speak up, be confident, put their shoulder's back, don't appease people by being smaller than them. But yeah, please and thank yous and opening doors, we've got that nailed.

It's interesting to find this discussion because I too have contemplated the seemingly contradictory problems with manners & assertiveness. I am aware that I have always felt as though it is impolite to be assertive and even now I can be that little girl standing at the bottom of the slide letting everyone else take their turn first.

I have concluded that I will teach my DC the manners first, queueing, sharing, turn taking, please and thank you etc. Then as they get older I will try to teach that being polite doesn't mean you have to be a push over. It all works two ways, if you wait your turn you should expect your turn. If you share, expect to be shared with. It's quite nuanced and complicated.

I also think it's important to teach DC that saying no to something isn't rude and doesn't have to be justified.

As for politeness on the London Underground - I was punched in the stomach by a young man at Oxford Circus because I wouldn't give way as he was trying force himself on to the carriage while I tried to alight.
And I commuted on the tube into London full time while pregnant. Many, many times no one offered me a seat, even at 38 weeks. (And I felt it was rude for me to ask for one!)

But DoMyBest the reason why yoour boss made the comment is that it doesn't look like it.
On his pov (and he assumed the people he invited thought that way too) you have other things in mind that are as important than business. And that's serving coffee.

Keeping the conversation flowing whilst you serve coffee is OK between friends and family. Not in business where everyone has a role and a hierarchical position. By putting yourself into the position of the one serving coffee, you are putting yourself down and you are not fully doing your job if that makes sense?

I agree about the issue of politness and being submissive. Too much of being polite is about not making a fuss, not attracting attention to one self and always put people before yourself. So yes it's the little girl at the bottom of the slide that lets everyone going before her. And the adult that let another colleague taking all the space talking abut how well he did x project at a meal with the boss.
But yoou can be polite wo letting others walk on your toes.

Re sharing.

I've had that issue numerous times when the dcs were small.
So dc has a friend over (they were 2 maybe 3yo?) and he is expected to share. Which he does.
Then we go to said friends and his friend doesn't want to share x and then y. And I tell my dc that it's OK it's his game and he shouldn't be forced to share. That it's his chooice to do so...

Cue for a child who never get his turn and the other who gets away with murder!

So I've change tunes. Yes share but you don''t have to give up whatever you have just because the other child wants it. But if you don't play with it, then let him play.
And at a friend's house, same applies. he doesn't get to take out of your hands the toy you are playing with. I got some looks from the other mum but hey ho, she should have intervened too.

I have been shoved and jostled on the Tube - for no real purpose or gain, I think it's just the rat race mentality some people in London have. I was called a "fackkn cant" by a young woman who tried but failed to board an extremely busy tube by forcing her way past me once. One bloke who nearly had my eye out with his umbrella at a pelican crossing correctly observed "you ent from raaanh ere are ya" when I politely suggested he might take a bit more care.

I haven't read the thread but you are not doing your dc a disservice.

Where I work it's really noticeable which dc have been taught the basics like please and thank you. Even if they don't remember the ones that know say thank you with a little prompting ie I would say there you go when I hand over their plate and they automatically say thank you even if they forgot to say please.

Dc that are polite and well mannered get further on life. You are more likely to like a child or adult if they're polite. If you do something for someone and they say please you're more likely to do it again. If you go for an interview and your polite and they like you you're more likely to get that job, manners get you on in life and are a basic life skill.

I

YANBU.
I often don't know why I bother teaching DC manners, but I still do.
Im almost Victorian etiquette , me!

cant STAND rude selfish anti-social bad mannered loud spitty gobby people and kids (and some oldies too).

manners have gone out of the window and we few here should keep them up and maybe one day the world will take notice.
I was brought up to be courteous/polite etc, although I was taught to be assertive too and not a pushover.

Thanks all (Kevin your tips on workplace etiquette have provided food for thought: maybe time to ask Lucy Kellaway to write about it). My conclusion (much as I'd like to agree with you, BrandNew, that manners actually help children get on in life) is that whilst I'll continue to teach my children my principles/values/rules, I suspect they'll be valued by a minority, and sneered/frowned upon by a majority. But if I prepare them for that then who knows, maybe they'll be presently surprised :)

On the other hand, letting other people talk about themselves, being polite to people, remembering their names, sharing and helping others etc are not necessarily a sign of weakness in the business world... They are also strategies that people use to get ahead in their careers too, because it makes other people feel good about themselves when they're around you, leaving them with a positive impression of you.

On a related note, politeness doesn't always mean someone is a good, kind person, either, IMHO. Some of the Machiavellian assholes in this world are quite charming! (On the other hand some assholes are just plain rude, yet somehow still manage to become successful in their career...)

I really value manners and were taught them by my parents from a young age. Although I know I am sometimes too polite, it has really helped me get jobs, work in teams and do well at work. When hiring a student placement recently at work (20/21 year olds) it was obvious who had manners and who didn't. I was not the hiring manager but my boss was and he wanted my opinion as well. There were a few who were polite to him but not to me (only a few years above them) and there were a few with no manners what so ever. Any that had no manners to myself or generally were rejected.

I think manners could really help some graduates and school leavers to get jobs as I think there are a proportion of young people who struggle to get work as they lack these skills (as well as other factors).

I will be teaching my son manners regardless of weather other people will be teaching theirs otherwise they'll die out all together. I don't care if its old fashioned there are too many rude people around these days. I'm don't think you should lower your standards to suit others if anything they should aim higher! Maybe the issue here is with speed and cunning rather than manners themselves. Ie expect others to act like an idiot and be ready for it!

Slightly off the point, I know, but why do you need a priority seat just because you have a baby in a pram?

I'm in a fairly senior position and I always make sure that everyone is offered a drink at the start of a meeting, (and during if it's going on a bit).

I also make sure we have regular comfort breaks, (again if the meeting is going on a bit). Simply because people focus better if they are comfortable.

I imagine if I didn't then one of my colleagues would ensure that everyone was comfortable (imagines a meeting of men dying of thirst and shifting in their seats because mutton wasn't there ).

I have a friend who is über polite. Always leaping up to open doors, give up his seat, standing if you stand at the table. It gets really annoying as on a day out as if there are say 4 women there he is constantly darting about like a hypervigiliant footman. I secretly want to run for a door when he's not looking and open the thing.

So I think manners change, need to adapt. If your leaping about, making coffee or whatever is out of context then it's not mannerly to carry on.

OP, keep going with the manners thing. Being a kind and considerate person is far more important than being a high flying person who shafts everyone all the way up the career ladder. There are more manners up north in my experience and I am quite shocked by the pushing and shoving on the tube. I mean, after all, they might have to wait THREE MINUTES for the next one. Where I live, we have one bus service into a local town. On a Wednesday. Think it comes back on a Friday.
What depresses me is the number of parents who don't say please and thank you to their children and don't expect it in return. 'What do you want?' 'I want burger and chips'. 'Give me that' etc.
My otherwise slightly out of control son is often complimented on his manners, and his 18m old sister always says please and thank you too. Perhaps I am old-fashioned.
Regarding your bus scenario, I think as the parent I would have said something to the teenager. I wouldn't have expected your son to do that as a pp suggested.

I remember thinking the same when my dcs were small. But as they'e grown up, their good manners are regularly remarked upon. People are happy to have them around.
Of course bad manners are observable everywhere. From the Nuns who pushed in front of dd in the Vatican Loos, that was very shocking to dd....to the kids who push in to receive their breakfast first at Scouts - they may get their breakfast first but those kids and less and less popular as they get older as more kids notice how unpleasant it is to spend time with them.
And yes sometimes people behave badly on the tube but it's good to teach your child a bit of tolerance, we do things a certain way and others have their own way...there's no point in getting all angsty about it
By the way, I would not encourage my dc to confront a teenager on the tube....you just never know where that is going to go. While you are there you can protect them but when you're not - you're dc could find themselves being followed and attacked if they confronted the wrong teenager.

I am a stickler for manners. Please, thank you, may I have, queuing in an orderly fashion, nice table behaviour and so on.

I also try to instill a strong sense of right and wrong. I am a firm believer in not standing 'idly by' or being complicit in wrong-doing via inactivity.

I'm old, draconian and unlikely to change. I have done the right thing and almost literally been bitten on the arse as a result but I shall continue not only to stand up for what's right whilst being impeccably polite but teach the next generation to do the same

It's not the ability to "shrug it off" when people don't have the same manners and values that matters, it's the recognition that manners and values are not a constant, but they vary hugely, and that you cannot judge someone for having different manners to you.

Teaching your child how to behave in a huge number of scenarios, and how to recognise what is appropriate in those scenarios is the skill that's required, not a rigid list of "manners". The manners which are appropriate in one place, will be wholly inappropriate in another, particularly internationally.

Teaching manners is a good idea, but you need to do it without teaching any sort of condescension for those who don't have the same.

Munchkin that made me laugh: it's hard to teach men to be 'casually' attentive to women (refilling their wine, opening doors, walking on the road side of the pavement, standing up when a woman walks in the room, holding out a seat at dinner, helping on her coat, etc) rather than making a big deal out of it.

And katielatie even if they master doing it casually/naturally, how to teach them to 'shrug off' people literally getting angry with them for doing it (eg holding the door open for a female work colleague)? If, as I fear, only a TINY few will appreciate these sorts of courtesies, they'll feel like freaks everywhere else.

Fredfred, that brings me onto your point: when should you adapt your manners? Should they assume, at a university concert, that they shouldn't show women the same manners they'd show them in a smart city club? Or do you drop these courtesies when with working class people (I know you didn't suggest this, am just trying to guess what you mean)? Because I really hope they won't, that they'll extend the same courtesies to all people, no matter their background (and the likelihood they'll get laughed at) because they're, fundamentally, about showing people you respect them and treat them as your equal.

My late father used to show the woman who sold his newspaper the same deference and courtesies as he did to royalty. It was drilled into him as a child and it would have been impossible for him to switch off depending on the situation. Perhaps you could give some examples of when people should adapt their manners to suit the situation?

I struck up a conversation with 2 women in their 50s on the tube about this: they said they still find it shocking when men don't stand up when they enter a room, that old school manners are indeed dissapearing, but they agreed with mumsnetters that's no excuse to stop teaching them.

Well the opening the door etc, for me this should be the same for men
and women tbh. So you hold the door to The person behind you, but I
Wouldn't want a man to hold the door for me just because I'm a woman.
Some of these were what people expected 50 years ago but things have changed and you go need to accept it.
This is different from knowing people's name (even though I'm quite rubbish at it), saying thank you or ensuring your guest is confortable.

DoMyBest courtesy is not defined by the actions you do - and a single idea that actions or words are what signify respect will get you into trouble. Look at nothing more than the different use of please when talking to a waiter - separatedbyacommonlanguage.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/saying-please-in-restaurants.html - both using and not using the word are good manners to show respect. The cultural difference is huge, but you'll not know what's right until you know enough about the staff (and even then could get it wrong if they make assumptions about your nationality and how you'll act.)

How you treat friends, is different to how you treat strangers or colleagues, many people are quite opposed to the idea that you treat them differently due to their appearance, others are insulted that you don't. Your 2 women in their 50's on the tube want a man to stand when they enter the room, others would be horrified at the idea at putting people out (although standing whenever you're being introduced to someone who is also standing makes sense for other reasons.)

Holding a door open for everyone is good manners, holding a door open for only women is not good manners, it's misogynistic bullshit.