Values & manners: it doing your dcs more harm than good to teach them values & manners which are virtually redundant these days?

[DoMyBest]

I'm genuinely doubting myself and would welcome views: the more I teach my dc's a set of values & manners which I was taught (admittedly by very old parents), the more I wonder if I'm not only not helping them, but actually doing them a disservice if most of the rest of the world has a different code.
I'm going to give a few examples, but only to give you some background, not (please) to have a debate on manners and right & wrong (there are already so many of those on mn):

• I teach them to jump out of a priority seat on the bus when an old/pregnant etc person needs it. But when ds does this for an old lady, a teenager nips in front of her and both my son & old lady end up standing,

-Ds taught to stand aside & let people out of tube before pushing in only to have several men in suits then push in front of him to get one of the remaining seats & son left doing homework sitting on tube floor (a lovely woman then offered him her seat, but she was the exception to the rule), Just realised these are both public transport examples, will try to think of a few others! But my point is we're living in an increasingly dog eats dog world, are basic values like queuing, sharing, prioritising old/ill/smaller people just going to end up putting them at a disadvantage? And, if they are, what's the solution? I think I'm inching towards the answer but I'd welcome your views.

Interesting OP.

I had an extreme "after you" upbringing, and yes, I have often felt trampled on. My mother drummed into me that I should always put other people first, but the problem is that other people rarely return the compliment.

I hope I have instilled good manners in my dcs. They have fallen victim to the "swings and slides" pusher-inners. My dcs were always incredulous and said, "Can't they see there's a queue?" We always just walked off, but many children seem oblivious and I fear that they then go on to be dominating adults who have scant regard for good manners.

I don't think the holding the door open thing happens very much now, but it is imo essential to hold the door to pass to the next person. It never ceases to amaze me how many people waft through the door and leave you standing there like Norman the Doorman.

In fact I once had an extreme altercation with someone in the leisure centre who did this. I said icily that I had intended her to take the door, not walk right through saying nothing. She went ballistic and followed me into the changing room and thumped on the door. Then she fetched a manager and was yelling that I had been rude to her! The manager was telling me through the door that I might be banned because I had upset a regular member. Ds in his swimming trunks was terrified and we hid in the cubicle for half an hour!

Hmm... that looks ike a case of who shouted/intimidating the more was right!

Fred I agree that you don't actually act the same way with friends and people you don't know and colleagues etc... That's why there shouldn't be a one 'this is how you should behave' rule.
It doesn't mean that you shouldn't be as respectful of everyone though.

The standing up for older people always makes me smile. When it happened for the first time to my mum, she was horrified. Are they saying I'm looking that old?!? was her first thought. She was quite upset about it lol.

But teaching to take turns on the slide doesn't mean that you teach your DC to let everyone go past them! Can teach not to push in, and also to stand up against other ones pushing in front of them, surely?

Agreed FredFred. Rhoda am still laughing about Norman the Doorman (happened to me SO many times): another example of how having a particular code of manners that no one else has gets you into trouble? Same will no doubt happen to my sons when they grow up...

Binky what you are talking about is teaching to take turns. Which is different from teaching to let people pass first (which then leads to the situation of a child at the bottom witing endlessly or the door holding thingy) have done the 'Norman the Doorman too. Each time I've wanted to scream 'But I'm not a doorman!!!'

Actually thinking aboout it, I don't do the door holding anymore.
I know that if I was in an environment where people were doing it, it would come back quickly but I think I got fed up to be walked on and taken for granted.

"Always leaping up to open doors, give up his seat, standing if you stand at the table."

Yes, this is annoying as is men who try to help you put your coat on, it actually makes things more difficult for me.

"I don't think the holding the door open thing happens very much now,"

I find it sexist, but actually expect if from old men out of habit so tend to be ready to walk through first myself

"but it is imo essential to hold the door to pass to the next person."

Yes, but only if the next person is right behind you, it's annoying when you're far away and you have to run to take the door from an overly polite person.

Rhoda I too have been left as Norman the Doorman. I don't get too cross as long as I get a "thank you" as ordinarily the next person (if there is one) gets it.

No "Thank you" however, illicts a loud and somewhat sarcastic "Thank you!" with an exagerated "How RUDE" now-a-days.

I had to guffaw loudly smile when recently my DD1 gave a loud an unashamed round of the same after she reached back to one handedly held a door open for a middle-aged lady who promptly breezed straight past her.

Polite doesn't have to mean push-over

I really don't think it's great manners to hold a door open for people and then berate them for not saying thank you. They didn't ask you to keep the door open for them, you decided it was what you wanted to do. All this bad attitude to people who do not have the same manners comes across as a bit school mam-ish.

Ok, so two wrongs don't make a right, but How Very Dare people breeze through a door when it's quite clear you are passing them the door to be polite . So I do think some people need telling. And in fact done with a schoolmarmish voice it can be quite effective!

I am amazed that someone wouldn't say thank you to the person that held the door open for them. I have lost count of the number of times I've shouted 'you're welcome' to vermin that haven't said thank you. Who the fuck do you think you are?

Thank god good manners aren't dead yet hey - "I have lost count of the number of times I've shouted 'you're welcome' to vermin that haven't said thank you."

Why would you not say thank you?

'Vermin'?? Really? There could be a thousand reasons why someone doesn't thank you - perhaps they are distracted, perhaps they didn't see you, whatever. It must be exhausting always judging and thinking the worst. Most people are decent, most people are polite, although as pointed out that means different things to different people. Ultimately manners and politeness are about getting along together in a busy world, and having a rigid set of rules with no exceptions doesn't help with this.

I suppose manners can be taken for granted. I was brought up by elderly parents, and Victorian manners were drilled into us.

For eg opening a door for someone.
I have been caught out holding the door for ages, because I couldn't get through it as the people stream was coming thiick and fast.
So now I don't hold the door by the handle, but will hold it open for the person behind me only.

I don't hang around holding it for anyone who is more than two seconds behind me. They have to sort themselves out.

I sometimes say in a sing song voice, "what do you say" when someone takes something I've offered without saying thanks, so they don't lose face by then saying thanks.

I don't think of people who don't say thanks as vermin, as a pp does, as I don't emotionally invest with how I think the world should be.
I tend to put myself out less now, and if someone hasn't much to give back to me, well so be it.

Manners are there as social grease, not to make you take second place.

If you find yourself again at the back of the queue, and doing homework on the floor, missing promotion, or calling "rude" people names, you need to be more assertive as your manners are making you a pushover.

I was on a packed commuter train out of London last night. One man said to another 'Look, your bag's really pissing me off. Put it on the floor'. I wonder what happened to 'Please can you put your bag on the floor as it's in my way'.

Oh dear. Didn't want you all to start fighting over what constitutes bad manners! I think I'll tell my boys that not everyone has the same manners, but when people are rude to them when they'll clearly just trying to be courteous or show respect, they'll at least have sorted the wheat (people who are gracious) from the chaff (people who shout YOU'RE SO SEXiST! if they hold a door open or I AM QUITE CAPABLE OF STANDING if they offer their seat - 2 recent examples).

101 thats really funny: he'd obviously been fuming for ages then couldn't contain himself. Note to self: teach boys to show anger politely (no shouting/swearing etc).