Values & manners: it doing your dcs more harm than good to teach them values & manners which are virtually redundant these days?

[DoMyBest]

I'm genuinely doubting myself and would welcome views: the more I teach my dc's a set of values & manners which I was taught (admittedly by very old parents), the more I wonder if I'm not only not helping them, but actually doing them a disservice if most of the rest of the world has a different code.
I'm going to give a few examples, but only to give you some background, not (please) to have a debate on manners and right & wrong (there are already so many of those on mn):

• I teach them to jump out of a priority seat on the bus when an old/pregnant etc person needs it. But when ds does this for an old lady, a teenager nips in front of her and both my son & old lady end up standing,

-Ds taught to stand aside & let people out of tube before pushing in only to have several men in suits then push in front of him to get one of the remaining seats & son left doing homework sitting on tube floor (a lovely woman then offered him her seat, but she was the exception to the rule), Just realised these are both public transport examples, will try to think of a few others! But my point is we're living in an increasingly dog eats dog world, are basic values like queuing, sharing, prioritising old/ill/smaller people just going to end up putting them at a disadvantage? And, if they are, what's the solution? I think I'm inching towards the answer but I'd welcome your views.

Actually, your post is very thoughtful. I'm wondering it myself too.

I have never thought it would also affect sons. I have two daughters and I'm very very aware that many of the good manners are teaching my daughters to be subservient, like Gobbolinothewitchscat pointed out. It's an increasingly a dog eat dog world and those who get far are the ones who are assertive and able to put themselves forward. They might have 'manners' but they certainly aren't 'polite'.

I really don't know what's the best thing to do.

On one hand, I know it's the right thing to give up your seat for an elderly. But I don't really agree with letting everyone else go first when taking turns. I can see DD1 already not getting her turn in gymnastics etc because she won't push herself forward.

We taught our dd to be polite, not to push in, take turns etc - and then in the playground she would always be at the back of the queue for the slide or climbing frame, and would let other children in front of her all the time, sometimes to the point where she'd hardly ever get a go! She was naturally fairly quiet and not particularly assertive anyway, and to be honest, it took us a long time for us to get her to stand up for herself.

Another dc we know comes from a family who are pretty religious and would act with total horror to any swearing or rudeness. When this dc found herself at school she couldn't cope at all with it, and if another child insulted her she took it so much to heart she would get incredibly upset and think that everyone hated her. She'd been taught that swearing was evil and wicked, so she naturally assumed that anyone swearing at her must absolutely hate her guts, and would burst into floods of tears. She was really unhappy at school as a result and was bullied mercilessly.

Gobbolinothewitchscat yes yes to the appraisal form. I was taught to be humble and never blow my own horn. I found it really embarassing to be saying all these success are due to my own work, when I clearly know it's a team effort.

dodobookends We taught our dd to be polite, not to push in, take turns etc - and then in the playground she would always be at the back of the queue for the slide or climbing frame, and would let other children in front of her all the time, sometimes to the point where she'd hardly ever get a go!

That's exactly my problem with DD1. Hence why I'm having the same internal debate about manners like the OP.

I think too it's ok to let kids know some people are just rude, but to also be open minded to the fact we don't always know what's going on in someone elses head, so while that doesn't mean you behave like a doormat, neither does it mean you jump to conclusions about people.

Depends on what you value. I dont teach mine all the old fashioned manners but the ones I think are important I do. Like I don't teach them please and thank you because I think asking alone is manners enough and mine say ta or cheers rather than thank you. I dont teach them to speak proper with Psand Qs because I dont and no one we know does.

I did teach them to help old folk across the road and when we get snowed in of a winter go n ask old Mrs so n so if she needs owt from the shop. Can't speak for the ones you mentioned because I have never been on a tube and it's been at least ten years since I was on a bus

TeapleaseLouise stories like that make my day. Thank you: after a horrible experience yesterday, the world all of a sudden seems human again (getting far too emotional, blame it on the post-baby hormones).

I think you got unlucky with boarding the tube. It is important that people leaving get off first, and IME this rule is stuck to well. However navigating the tube is a bit like driving - yes you follow the rules and generally try to be courteous but there is also an expectation that you "make good progress". So don't push in, but be on your toes, react quickly, be assertive. Remember the people stuck behind you are just as deserving of your consideration as those ahead of you, and politeness to the former means not stopping dead for 5 mins to let other past you. If you are not a regular on the tube you can be more like a hesitant driver - pausing to wait for a big gap then finding more confident drivers barge in, whereas the more confident drivers might think you are faffing and wasting perfectly good gaps.

Interesting debate generally, I think you start with good manners then moderate with some "standing your ground" assertiveness maybe.

So much of manners is about good communication skills. So in the colleague story, someone with the right communication skills would have been able to redirect the boasty colleague. (And if we are really leaning on manners, it should have been the boss that was being boasted to, it is accepted that the senior people at a work event have some responsibility to keep the conversation flowing. They should have nipped boasty boasterson off and brought someone else into the conversation).

But yes, it is important to teach children how to take a compliment, how to talk about their achievements, how to make sure everyone in a social situation feels like they had 'air time.' My DS has ASD and will probably never be very good at all that, but it means I've had to really think about these issues and break them down for him.

In the bus situ he would have ripped the teenager a new one tbh, but in the process made so many references to the age of the 'old lady' that she would have got off at the next stop!

Lurked wise words on teaching children that some people are just rude, but also not to jump to conclusions (which I'm prone to do).

Remember the people stuck behind you are just as deserving of your consideration as those ahead of you.

My kind of driver, Flomple! I do get fed up with drivers who are 'kind' to those in front of their nose but forget about the people in the rear view mirror. Let one person in, yes, but not half a dozen!

Lonny, people these days tend to be promoted irrespective of their manners - which means bosses often don't manage situations where people are being rude or inconsiderate.

I remember, as a junior at a small lunch party, repeatedly refilling an Ambassador's water & wine glasses because it didn't cross my bosses's mind, despite the fact we were giving the lunch, to to it.
I also remember, at an early morning meeting in our law firm when we were all making polite chit chat, offering to pour coffee for a couple of visiting law firm colleagues - who I viewed as our guests - only to have my boss pull me aside and tell me its 'not my job' to pour coffee & they were 'perfectly capable of pouring it themselves' (I've since had charming, painfully senior, men & women pour coffee for me at business meetings in their offices and been grateful for the gesture).

I've thought about this too - partly because my one is quite hesitant by nature so I want to teach him manners but not squash his ability to stand up for himself. Other reason is because my friend seems to actively encourage some (what I would call) rude behaviour because she thinks people like that get on in life. She might be right. But her son is an absolute pain to be around!

It's about the balance of being polite and assertive, and within the right context. A networking dinner - absolutely talk yourself up to the max. A friend's dinner party - maybe tone it down.

I would find a child who didn't say 'please' rude though, and I think that holds for most people?

Ah, see that's a whole other kettle of fish. As I woman I would never pour the coffee or top up the wine, because so often it's assumed that I am there to pour the coffee and the wine...

To be polite & well mannered but not let people take the piss is a really important lesson to learn in life.

As a PP said, your DS was obviously totally right to move for an elderly person to sit down - but needs that extra bit of confidence to say "excuse me, I moved so that this lady could sit down". 9 times out of 10 the teen would then be shamed into standing up. Incidentally, when you posted that it made me think of DS1. He has Asperger's and I can totally imagine him doing the same as all he'd see is the empty seat, not the person vacating it or the elderly lady approaching it. He would definitely get up if told though and never sit down on public transport again in case it was someone's seat and he hadn't noticed.

We don't live in a big city but on the occasions I visit one (Birmingham usually) I do find people to be more rude in many ways. Although I'm not sure if it's really rudeness or just day to day survival on the Cross City Line!

I don't think teaching your DCs to have no manners just because some other people are rude is a good strategy. I'm certain most people they meet in life will appreciate their ability to be polite.

Binky, what sort of rude behaviour does your friend encourage for her dcs to get on in life?
Lonny, sexism never bothered me when I started my career (on hindsight it should have) but, even if I'd made the link between sexism & pouring coffee for men, I'd have kept doing it as it would have been impossible for me to pour myself one without offering it to those closest to me first. It's just been drilled into me (like am drilling it into my dcs - who'll no doubt get told off by their future bosses for doing it too, sigh...).

And Headdreamer, interesting you thought it was only a problem for girls (I understand your logic).
By way of topical example of just how much it's a problem for men, there was a whole piece in the Financial Times recently (by the hilarious & brilliant Robert Shrimsley) calling David Cameron sexist because he holds the car door open for SamCam (apparently this implies she's too weak to do it herself): another example of an (almost obsolete) little act of courtesy actually counting against someone (although I suspect Cameron takes the criticism better than I do).

I don't want go out myself too much but, for example, when he's asked someone for something and they've said no (for good reasons) she encourages him to keep on trying. Silly little things like not stopping him blowing out other peoples' birthday candles, not stopping him snatching things off much smaller children, laughing when he goes to front of stage and shows off during other kids' performances etc.

Actually your last example is a good one.

I think that not offereing a drink to your host is a no-no. At the very least, you help them out and/or show them where everything is.
On the others ide, if you spendf all your time ensuring their cups are full etc, then you are falling into the 'hostess' category and you are not doing your job anymore if that amkes sense.

So it's really an issue about politeness but about adjusting your nehaviour to the circumstances.

Same with the Ambassador. Having done a few of these meals with clients, I wouldn't dream about concentrating on that rather than on my work (in that case, doing some chitchat with him etc...)

The meeting with a boss or networking? I would go for it wo any issue. Because these meetings (because that's what they are) are there to sell yourself and nothing will ever happen if you don't 'show up' as it were. What, imo, wouldn't be OK is cut someone in mid sentence for example so you can tell everyone how great you are.

Maybe I'm naïve but I think the majority of people have good manners.

Binky what is the idea behind your friend letting her child do that?

Go to the front of the stage, I can nearly see where she is coming from. But all the rest is surely only teaching that child that the only way to do thing is to stamp on other people feet. And that you have to win/be the first all the time.
I can see how you could think that. Except that I believe it's co-operation that should emphasize (ie you can only go so far wo the support of other people around you eg a manager need the support and good work from his staff)

I think the solution is to teach them to have a balance, manners are good but don't be anyones doormat. I do sometimes use priority seats if there's no others available but always get up and leave them to vulnerable or pregnant or disabled people. Never had a teenager nip in front and steal the seat but would probably tell them to leave it as I hadn't vacated it for them. Either that or I'd maybe physically block the seat until the person it was intended for was there.

I admit to having yo-yoed around this problem growing up. First I was all me me me, and then after being told it was a bit rude I went too far the other way before realizing that neither of those things was the best way to do it.

Hm, again I'm not sure the examples of the conference is an example of bad manners, per se, just different expectations of the situation. If I have a dinner party, I make sure that I offer more wine if someone finishes their glass. At a conference where refreshments are provided, even by my firm, I wouldn't be keeping an eye on peoples' drinks in the same way - it's not the focus of the occasion, as a PP said. I guess I would still offer water/coffee to others before pouring it myself, but I think that constant offering would come across as a bit intrusive and overbearing (and hence not be polite at all). Maybe this was what your boss meant, rather than them feeling that it was always inappropriate to offer food around. I think that politeness is often more about sensitivity to the situation and making others feel comfortable, rather than adhering to a rigid set of rules.

Personally, I would find a man holding open a car door for me sexist. People get out of cars on their own all the time, and I think that on the vast, vast majority of car trips, the driver does not get out first to open the door for his passengers. Certainly, I've never encountered anyone doing this among my family or friends. So if someone actually does get up and open the car door for you it gives the impression that they're not trying to be helpful and make your experience easier, they're just trying to make a point (about how chivalrous they are). I really doubt Dave opens the car door for any male guests of his when he gives them a lift.