Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To dislike "Radical Feminism"

985 replies

InternetPerson · 25/09/2015 21:15

I've got nothing against feminists that fight for womens rights and genuinely want the best the best for everyone and don't hate anyone, but "RadFems" tend to be full of bitterness and hatred. And I'm not just talking about kids, these are high profile, intelligent women with power and influence. Do you think it's unreasonable to dislike something where most people think men are inherantly evil and to be feared? Or do you think their hatred is fair and we should respect them for their good work in trying to make humans hate eath other even more?

Like, I said, I have nothing against Feminism, it's done a lot of great work down the years and still does, but "Rad Fem" and "Feminism" are too completly different things in my opinion. Is this a wrong conclusion?

AIBU?

OP posts:
BiggaBanga · 28/09/2015 16:39

Haven't hacked my way through all 33 pages, or indeed any of the 33 pages but Caitlin Moran wrote an article just last Saturday, highlighting what I believe would rid us of a lot of the tension between men and women. I am surprised, mortified in fact by her article which explains that there are two things men don't appreciate about women (more especially, perhaps by their partners): the first us that we frighten you, that women are often scared by men, generally; and secondly, that women are frequently exhausted physically. i am mortified, really, to be told this, to need to be told this. Ye gods, even St Paul tells his male listeners and converts "Love your wives, and treat them with gentleness". Some of the stuff I've read on mumsnet has really hurt me, that partners can be so beastly to each other. It is an eye opener, and should be part of the school curriculum, especially given the dreadful influence of porn on the net. Caitlin's article is worth pasting on the fridge door.

LoveChickens · 28/09/2015 16:43

I don't get why radical feminists have to call transwomen he, call them chicks with dicks, mentally ill and out them on website

I agree Ego. You always get an especially hard time on here. I'm not trans but I'm always sitting her respecting and supporting your beliefs. I'm sorry I don't get involved ever, but I would only get ripped a new one too - so I don't bother. Anyway, Flowers to you.

LoveChickens · 28/09/2015 16:45

*here even!

Grazia1984 · 28/09/2015 17:38

Wise though those words are Bigga they are also rather sexist. I am not afraid of anyone and I'm female and if I were treated in the way St Paul would like like some kind of pure Madonna with kid gloves, cherished as home maker and special one I would want to kick him in the penis.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/09/2015 17:38

Every woman here has received vile insults from men.
Many have suffered rape or other violence.
In the UK, men are convicted of 85% of the violent crime and 98% of the sexual assaults.
Women in other countries have suffered slavery and mass murder.

If someone started an "Aibu to dislike men" I bet that wouldn't go down well.

I wouldn't say why do transwomen have to threaten radfems with knives, beatings, rape, murder.
Because it would be grossly unfair. Most don't.
So I would think an aibu about disliking transwomen to be unfair too.

BuffytheFeminist · 28/09/2015 17:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

lljkk · 28/09/2015 18:01

I don't remember any vile insults from men. Not worse than I've had off women, at least.
I can be quite loud, bolshy, hyper-active & impolite.
Oh wait, I must not be a woman. That would explain a lot. :)

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 28/09/2015 18:11

God, I've had vile insults from men - particularly when I rebuff their advances. You know, the ones that catcall on the street, then get all offended and abusive when you walk on by, minding your own business. It's charming, it really is - happens much,much less now I'm in my 40's - but it's happened to just about all women, IME.

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 28/09/2015 18:13

I totally agree, btw, BigChoc.

laurierf · 28/09/2015 18:16

I don't get why radical feminists have to call transwomen he, call them chicks with dicks

but it seems some transwomen are very proud of their dicks and love to let feminists know this Confused

"… relations with Michfest attendees were often unexpectedly cordial. A few years ago, though, Vogel says, some protesters committed acts of vandalism…. spray-painting a six-foot penis, and the words “Real Women Have Dicks,” on the side of the main kitchen tent..."

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/08/04/woman-2

Not all radfems, not all transwomen… etc.

Grazia1984 · 28/09/2015 18:28

Many many vile insults from men in my case, yes as most women will have experienced. We are all on the same side. Just want fairness and equality. Arguing over words and definitions is fairly pointless.

BigChocFrenzy · 28/09/2015 18:32

I'm 59 and it still happens: crowded train, a guy keeps "accidentally" nudging my breast or rubbing his penis against my back.
I tell him to stop and of course I'm that hysterical, fantasising woman who's embarassing the poor chap.
Age 59 or 99 or 9, doesn't seem to matter.

btw, why are we so often "hysterical" Confused ? If I hadn't told him sharply to stop, then I've invited him to continue and maybe do worse.
Maybe my tone of voice or volume offended the poor blossom.

Grazia1984 · 28/09/2015 18:34

Yes, same here. When I was 14 out on my bike men shouted and slowed down. Now I am ovber 50 they STILL do because they want to feel they own the public space. It is almost a kind of lower form of the Saudi and traditionally Muslim and Hindu purdah that women must be hidden away in case someone else steals your woman. Hopefully it's dying out a bit in the UK.

TheXxed · 28/09/2015 19:05

I am 26 and in the last week I have had a man rub his genitals against me on the train, been cat called (I prefer the term street harassment) and had a man follow me around a pub after I rejected his advances.

The identity and self identification issue is of vital importance to women and I would say even more so to black women because it reinforces essentialised narratives rather examining the power structures which these essentialised narratives serves.

TheXxed · 28/09/2015 19:07

This article from my academic crush Adolph Reed jr provides an excellent explanation.

www.commondreams.org/views/2015/06/15/jenner-dolezal-one-trans-good-other-not-so-much

UnderTheGreenwoodTree · 28/09/2015 21:28

As there has been a lull in the thread, I would just really like to c&p Buffy's potted history of radfem from Saturday - as I feel it was lost in the mayhem that was Saturday night on this thread, and because it's just so informative:

In full:

"According to the Oxford Dictionary, radical (when used as a noun) means: a person who advocates thorough or complete political or social reform; a member of a political party or part of a party pursuing such aims.

It came from the women's liberation groups of the 60s and 70s, arising partly out of some young women's experiences with male led movements for liberation like socialism and civil rights. Women were part of those groups, but when some tried to get the men to listen to the issues they thought were important, they were told (and this is a quote from Jo Freeman, recounting something said to Shulamith Firestone) "Cool down, little girl. We have more important things to talk about than women's problems."

They didn't cool down, they fucked off and started their own groups, using primarily a method called consciousness raising, which is very much like we do here really. You know when a woman posts a thread that says stuff like, my DH checks my messages, gets stroppy when I see my friends, controls most of the money, is this normal? And loads of women appear to say no, it's not normal, red flag, this was my experience too and this is what happened in the end, call Women's Aid, we'll support you, get out, life can be free and good? That's like consciousness raising. Through it, women become aware that they're not the only one struggling, they're not exhausted and depressed because they're weak but because they are being treated unfairly, that it's a problem with society not with them, that with other women they can collectively find the strength to change things. Mumsnet's Let Toys Be Toys and We Believe You campaigns are examples.

Out of these groups in the 60s and 70s came the notion that society is sexist to its very core, to its root and the only way to gain equality was to liberate women from this system designed by men to benefit men. In other words, a process of complete reform. These women pointed out how women's reproductive and domestic labour was expected to be provided to men, yet wasn't valued. They pointed out how little rights women had over our own bodies. They pointed out how rape in marriage was legal, how a man's violence towards his wife and children was regarded as a private matter. They pointed out how few rights women had at work, and how much sexual harassment they were expected to put up with. They fought for those things to be brought into the light and challenged.

They achieved a great deal of change, giving us a legal bedrock upon which we can stand now to try and fight the social attitudes that still exist around rape, DV, women's work in the home etc. They wrote some crazy sounding shit (Firestone's proposal that we free women by growing babies in jars etc). I don't know for sure how that was meant, but I think most radfems today regard such writings as theory, thought experiments designed to shift the Overton window so changes like maternity rights would seem much, much less outlandish.

They were also of their time, so most of them were white, western women thinking mostly about white western culture. Black women at the time and today feel and felt (rightly so IMO) sidelined, because white women didn't really appreciate the dual impact of racism and sexism, nor realise the advantages they had over their sisters because they were white in 60s America. This problem isn't unique to radical feminism: liberal feminism is criticised for being very middle-class oriented as well as having a problem with race, socialist feminism has issues etc. Ideas like womanism arose in reaction to this. There is no one feminism that can or should claim to speak for all women, in all places, in all ways. Women are 51% of the world's population, not a minority, we are a hugely varied and complex group.

The reason radfems are painted in the popular imagination as ugly, hairy, aggressive man-haters? I think it's because radical feminism challenges the base of male power and privilege over women: dynamics in relationships and the home. If you think about it, throughout history a lot of men's exploitation of women has been conducted in the private sphere: women forced to marry and bear children, raped, abused, made to work hard in the home for little thanks or reward and the wealth she helped created belonged to the man only; if she left, she left with nothing. However much we love our partners, I can't see how anyone can argue that family structure today is not a legacy of a time when women were possessions or resources to be traded between men, when rape was a crime of property against a woman's owner. It's the last, mostly untouched bastion of male power, this ability be a king in a little castle. Radical feminism traces most other oppressions back to this dynamic. The personal is political.

And think also about what these insults say about the sort of women society approves of? Attractive, soft, passive and accommodating; hairless, young and naive, defined by our difference to men and weakness in relation to them. Men are allowed to be hairy and aggressive, aren't they? It's not an insult to call them that, these are defining characteristics of masculinity. So I want to ask again, who benefits from watering down radical feminist ideas so they become palatable to the mainstream?
Add message | Report | Message poster

BigChocFrenzy · 28/09/2015 22:21

Thanks, Greenwood and Buffy too. Very informative

JohnWick · 28/09/2015 23:57

Nice bit of divide and rule there OP. Chuck in some divisive commentary and scarper whilst other posters battle it out and fight amongst themselves. Good work.

JohnWick · 28/09/2015 23:58

Oh, are you Chris Morris? Good and bad AIDs sort of thing?

Grazia1984 · 29/09/2015 07:49

Hard for anyone to disagree with that quote above.

Just every day (as I am sure most of us do) do your bit to challenge gender stereotypes and effect change.

FloraFox · 29/09/2015 13:25

Under thanks for reposting that. I missed it the first time.

That's brilliant Buffy Flowers StarStarStar

BuffytheFeminist · 29/09/2015 14:23

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BigChocFrenzy · 29/09/2015 17:17

Thanks, buffy You've expressed my feelings, but said it so much better than I can
Flowers
I think transwomen - and transmen- and radfems have some interests and radical aims in common.
We would make a lot of progress campaigning together on those, instead of fighting over wher we differ.

However, many of womens' concerns, disadvantages, injuries & illnesses have been uniquely experienced due to female biology.
My random thoughts :

. PIV rape, planning your life to avoid it, fear of pregnancy from rape, or of an STI from rape causing infertility.

. "Honour" rapes or killings in some cultures.

. Women as chattels for breeding purposes and sex, until comparatively recently in history, even in the West. This attitude lingers to some extent.

. Pregnancy - for fertile women, it's a possible consequence of sex, even with contraception. Maybe permanent health consequences even if planned.
Several months when a pregnant woman is more vulnerable.
Women in many countries don't have sufficient access to contraception, or are not allowed by men to make such decisions.

. Women having a much shorter time to have DC if they want them. Consequences for careers.

. BFing - organising it, vulnerability, anxiety, discomfort.

. Abortion. Taking the decision whether to do this. Also, many countries still do not allow women to have reproductive control over their own bodies and would penalise women for doing so.

. Periods - sometimes painful and difficult at work, been caught out by unexpected timing without sanpro. Always aware of our cycle. PCOS, PMT.

. Peri / Menopause - weight gain, hot flushes, insomnia, sweats etc
. Being generally the smaller and much less muscular sex. Much more likely to come off worse in any physical contest with a man, especially in an enclosed space like toilets, changing room, prison, hospital ward.

. Needing separate sports events for girls and women not to get overwhelmed by the generally higher athletic ability of male athletes, e.g. needing separate tennis, running, basketball, boxing .... in fact contact sports with males could be, and have been, very dangerous for women.
Mediocre sportsmen have already become champions as women.

slugseatlettuce · 29/09/2015 17:21

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

EnthusiasmDisturbed · 29/09/2015 17:27

great post Buffy

I have always been a feminist. Our voices I feel have been stifled somewhat. My aunt who proudly burnt her bra in the 60's is saddened that we have not come as far as they believed we would by year 2000. We have to shout loudly, we have to protect some spaces that are ours and we have to at times say well no actually we are only wanting to discuss and deal with issues that are solely ours when we do we are always told to think of others because that is our role to put others first