They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

OK, if you are unable to provide formal sources for a meaning you suggest has a prescriptive impact...

What I said is not at all inconsistent with the OED you give. In fact, I am suggesting supporting recent migrants with integration. Not all definitions of integration support a removal of a distinct cultural identity. I'm puzzled as to why you would try and make a point of suggesting it does.

I'm honestly getting a bit disturbed as to why you are so ideologically intent on arguing over semantics and labelling things as unacceptable unless they fall within your very narrow and pre-designed view. That suggests to me that you want very much to mould people's thinking. You do realise that to anyone who knows how to assess proper formal evidence, this comes across as somewhat unrealistic, and at worst, duplicitous?

If you find this reasoning intellectually beyond you, have a think about the criminal case in Germany where two recent migrants allegedly murdered their daughter by strangling her when they found out she was buying condoms for sex outside marriage, which brought shame and dishonour upon a Muslim family. This allegedly transgressed their cultural and religious principles and is at odds with modern day German culture where sex outside marriage is not seen as objectionable. Clearly this is a conflict in a migrant family where the daughter has integrated quite well into her new culture and her family have not, and still wished to impose cultural rules upon her.

Unfortunately we are talking in the past tense as she is now dead.

Your forced view of multiculturalism and rigid and fake view of integration provides no solution to this and is possibly quite close to that imposed by those parents upon their unfortunate daughter. The only solution possible provided from this version was the death of the daughter, to remove the stain of dishonour. Murder was considered worse than a breach of the honour of the family. Sticking to ideology and religion was considered preferable to the happiness of their daughter. Clearly this is not multi-culturalism either as only one culture was preferred in choosing the final outcome.

FFS. It's not my fucking view, it's what it bloody means. That case is exactly multiculturalism in action. This man moved to Germany and lived there without learning the language and without taking on any parts of German culture such as women having autonomy over their own lives and choice of partners. Multiculturalism says that is okay, the state and society will only censure these attitudes when it actually crosses the line into crime rather than just making women's lives very unpleasant.

What the daughter did was the opposite of multiculturalism, she adopted German culture and was living her life pretty much like a German. Multiculturalism is not on the side of people like her, it's on the side of people like her father because it supports their right to practice their own culture above the right of women like his daughter being able to live their own lives as they see fit.

How much more formal that the OED do you need? It's not bloody rocket science, just google it. It means cultures running in parallel in the same country. The clues kind of in the name, multi means lots of and culture means, well, culture. It means people keeping their own culture rather than adopting that of the place they move to.

I'm not arguing a solution, I'm just stating what it means. A lot of people (including my OH previously and probably you Scremer) have a misconception that it means some sort of lovely cuddly society where everybody gets along but it doesn't. It means the exact opposite and that incomers live apart maintaining the cultures of their homelands, it is the exact opposite of integration and doesn't involve it, in fact it rejects integration by it's very definition.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism

www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/western-europe/2015-03-01/failure-multiculturalism

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11479761/We-must-listen-to-Trevor-Phillips-and-his-inconvenient-truths-about-race.html

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/11053646/Multiculturalism-has-brought-us-honour-killings-and-Sharia-law-says-Archbishop.html

Salsmum it is quite unbelievable, why do we have to have them here if that is their attitude. would they behave like that in their own country?

I think we should be far more picky about who comes here.

I say bring them in and stack them high, its good for the economy. I say we fill up London with them so we can take full advantage of their labour. They definitely wont feel animosity towards us after they realise who is on top.

This thread has gone a bit weird ey.

Speaking of incomers' attitudes to women, according to the BBC, UK police recorded over 2800 "honour attacks" in the UK in 2011 - I'm struggling to find a more recent figure www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16014368

No doubt some of those were against males instead, and I'm sure it's not unknown for longstanding British families to behave in this way too. But if those are the reported figures for what is a notoriously under-reported crime, I can't help wondering what the true total really is

Agree with everyone who has pointed out that the first step is to get the UK law enforcement/justice system to start robustly enforcing the laws we already have to protect women.

And to make sure that there are not any exceptions made for religious reasons, and to make sure that a fear among the authorities of seeming religiously or culturally insensitive is not allowed to override what is morally right and right according to the law.

Agree with yourself, leavemywings. It's about time we stopped pandering to religion all together.
Practice your religion in.your own home, your place of worship or inside your head but thats as far as it goes. Your religion doesn't make you special or allow you to impinge on anyone elses rights.

I think quite a few people on this thread need to look into the negative consequences of stereotyping

Your religion doesn't make you special or allow you to impinge on anyone elses rights

I agree, and I want to live in a secular society.
I am quite strongly anti-religious.
Problem is...religions dictate that believers live their lives in accordance with the rules of the faith in question and where those are not in line with the rules of wider society there will always be conflict.

And what chance do women stand. IF this article is accurate check out the reason for not prosecuting If its true its very very worrying.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3250849/Alleged-rapist-attacked-former-partner-tracking-mother-three-British-Gas-told-new-address.html#comments

Atenco not stereotyping when you see everyday the damage and mayhem and frequent police visits that are caused by having these people living in your neighbourhood. Incidently I saw a cartoon on a social media site with a woman sat on the beach smiling and a man/child washed up next to her....one of the comments was 'This is the English' NO ONE called them racists nor commented...now boot on other foot and there would have been MAJOR comments....maybe racism only works one way.

Who exactly are "these people" you're talking about? Earlier you just referred to them as migrants, do you mean all migrants? Migrants from a certain country? A certain religion? You do sound pretty racist to me tbh.

Don't really get the relevance of that daily mail article by the way, it says they didn't prosecute due to lack of witnesses?

Well that cartoon does sound kind of accurate going by many of the views on this thread. You are offended after what you've been posting about "these people"?

We are a pretty tolerant society. We allow the Brethren to practise their religion and their girls tend to serve and obey men. We have lived harmoniously with London's very orthodox Jews in Stamford Hill whose girls tend to marry early and have 12 children etc etc.

The problem comes if English law is broken. So those two examples the girls don't marry until 16+ because that is the law. Most English muslims don't beat their children, commit honour killings, beat their wives or keep girls out of school.

On the whole it all works in the UK.

However allowing a vast number of sexist cultures in is going to change the balance of power and put women back 100 years. It's the quantity that is the issue. However the quantity is not likely to be huge as we are not letting many in so no one needs to be too worried.

Grazia Don't be ridiculous. Brethren women do housework like many, many women who are not Brethren.

When i said 'these people' I was referring to the migrants who are living in the old folks home near me..I'm not sure what area they are from (in EVERY case) nor do I give a fufu what their religion nor sexual orientation is all I know is that the council classed them as migrant homeless and they certainly are not respecting the country, neighbourhood,building and surroundings/possessions of all around them! I'm not a racist but believe that we should ALL be treated equal INCLUDING our forces hero's who are on the street and the many local folks who need rehousing too it should be a fair system for all as far as housing etc goes and it clearly isn't.

Nah you are racist.

Lemon its relevant because it shows that the laws attitude to rape seems to be different to anything else. It backs up the fact that rape crimes are not treated the same as other crimes.

Oh I completely agree that rape cases are often dealt with inadequately, that's a widespread issue that needs addressing, i was just confused about its relevance specifically to the migrant crisis.

I suggest that Mumsnet open up a section specially for people like most of the contributors here, it could be called INRB (I'm not racist but)

Atemco I realise you'd perhaps prefer that this discussion wasn't happening at all, but despite occasional disagreement it seems to be pretty good natured on the whole, with lots of give and take, information sharing and so on. I can't speak for anyone else, but I've certainly learned a lot I didn't know before

Then you come along tonight and add very little except cliches and insults ... what a shame