They're not refugees, we're being invaded

[goonthenflameme]

I admit, the Syrians have got it bad. There is a war and those boys who haven't been shot by ISIL are being conscripted by the President.

But if life is that bad, why do they only want to go to Germany and if they can't go then then they'll go back to Syria.

Why are we now seeing people from Kazakstan joining the throngs?

I agree that people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria need help. But the thougsands and thousands of people coming through can't all be refugees in dire need of help if they are so picky as to where they will live.

They're invading Europe. And we are letting them. What's going to happen in 20 years? Will Christianity and western ways be swept under the carpet?

shins I am fairly sure those figures you quoted are incorrect (do you have a source?). I can find an average figure of 3.8 children per woman for first generation Pakistani immigrants, but second generation immigrants typically have much smaller families (in keeping with a much higher level of educational attainment).

One of the problems with this discussion is that "facts" frequently get repeated with no effort to check their source or veracity.

Britain has exploited many countries in its history. We enslaved people, we set up proxy rulers, we exploited local resources.
If we are rich and they migrants are economically motivated, maybe its best chalking this one up to Karma.

that is true Muddling, sadly it is a fact that many like to ignore or deny, or else claim that it was so long ago, that it has no bearing on modern world politics.
Like ostriches really.

I didn't realise that muslim women don't do sports, always good to learn somethiing new.

'Muslim women don't do sports' really? What none of them?

Scremersford - "I have never, ever met a Muslim woman who does mountain bike racing, and I do lots. Even your local 5k or 10k - covering your head is going to make it so hot and uncomfortable for anyone who feels they have do that, its bound to be off-putting. And even if they do run, they are going to be proportionately slower because of that. Where are all these sporty Muslim women? They're certainly not out trying to meet British women by joining in with our hobbies! A few exceptions hardly break the norm."

Well seems muslim women can't run in their hijabs and burkas and stuff and they mostly aren't allowed.

The Muslim Women Sports Foundation says "Muslim women are amongst the most inactive women across the world."

The very existence of the foundation shows it is (obviously) nonsense to say no Muslim women are sporty.

I think football is quite popular as a sport for Muslim women. The Iranian women's team are quite succesful.
Also Laleh Seddigh is a race car driver from Iran.
Clothing is obviously an issue, but some Islamic sports wear is now being produced, and sporting organisations are being more flexible in their rules.

Plus, not counting the huge amount of women who would still identify or class themselves as muslim but don't dress "muslim".

Is it the captain of the Iranian women's football team who has been told by her husband, after months of training, that she cannot represent her country because he won't give her permission to leave the country.

That's very sad, beaucoup.
It's attitudes like that that make me very thankful to be born in the UK.

For goodness sake. Muslim women from largely well educated, relatively progressive families do 'do sports' in exactly the same way that some of them do become doctors or write books, or go on stage. Albeit possibly in a headscarf and some annoyingly restrictive clothing.

The point is that they are the lucky few, the ones who manage to buck the trend and step out of their pre-ordained box, because they are born into fathers, or married to husbands moderate enough and sufficiently unthreatened enough to allow it.

to fathers, not into fathers

Bambanini and LeaveMyWings can I just say how great it is to have two such sports experts on mumsnet like the pair of you. There I am, doing local running races, my town's park run most other weeks, riding my horse, cycling, member of local clubs, and never having come across a single Muslim woman there. Have been discussing this with the other women I know through sports and they say the same. But happily it appears we are all wrong!

For goodness sake. Muslim women from largely well educated, relatively progressive families do 'do sports' in exactly the same way that some of them do become doctors or write books, or go on stage. Albeit possibly in a headscarf and some annoyingly restrictive clothing.

I must admit to never having seen a Muslim woman mountain biking in a headscarf or out horse riding (and I know that sport at least is very popular in the ME as one of the Saudi princes was banned for horse abuse recently and cheating recently after his horse's leg snapped in half during a competition).

But of course there must be certain suitable sports that Muslim women do. I would love to see more Muslim women out doing more mainstream sport, they are missing out on so much fun, and I would like to meet them. But when I moved to a foreign country, I made the effort to join local clubs to meet the locals. I didn't expect them to rearrange their lives to seek me out!

BlueJug I know Munich and some of the smaller Bavarian towns. They are small, well-ordered, clean. They simply don't have the facilities to handle the numbers. In reality nowhere does.

I used to miss living in Germany. I'm really glad I'm not there now. I used to run in the woods behind the town, I wouldn't do it now. Or I'd have to do it in a large group. It honestly sounds like utter chaos in Germany. I can't help thinking Angela Merkel and some Germans were trying to indulge in a bit of points scoring, trying to prove they are somehow more welcoming and less racist than the rest of Europe. But of course they are not following European Law and they may just end up creating a worse longer term situation as a result of a kneejerk reaction.

However, what I also find notable is that this is one of the great migrations in human history that we are viewing. Most of our ancestors originally came from elsewhere at some point or another. Whats going to happen to parts of the ME like Syria if they lose the best of their population? Will it become depopulated and ruined? It used to be a great country. Aleppo was one of the main trading centres of the world at a time when GB was just building its way up.

Scremers I am not arguing with you, I was just commenting to whomever it was upthread that implied that Muslim girls do play sports. I wasn't talking about at a local level but at an international level. I totally agree with you that your average Muslim young woman/teenaged girl in the UK from a first, second generation immigrant family is unlikely to be involved in sport. I know from speaking to friends who are teachers that they are often actively discouraged/prevented from partaking in school swimming lessons and sports days etc. But at a national level (in predominantly Muslim countries) there are women who compete and participate in sport. Just not many. Not enough.

Ah OK LeaveMyWings I was just probably suffering from astonishment at finding out that theres been a phenomenon that all keen sportswomen I know are unaware of in our midst and that Muslim women are apparently now keen and active sportspeople, out and about making friends. My local club made a huge drive to encourage the greater participation from the sizable local Muslim female community, with absolutely zero success whatsoever. A lot of people with very little free time put a huge amount of effort into it, which is why I was so astonished to read Bambanini's different take on it. Perhaps I do the wrong kind of sports?

But at a national level (in predominantly Muslim countries) there are women who compete and participate in sport. Just not many. Not enough.

There are a few, its true. Although I've heard that Egyptian women who want to run face horrendous problems, mainly sexual harassment but also in buying any kind of footwear suitable to run in. Obviously that doesnt' apply to Muslim women in the UK, so it cannot be the only barrier.

There also seems to be quite a few examples of Muslim women from predominately Muslim countries who are high up in politics, do sport and so on. Or you see female architects such as Zaha Hadid being appointed to big ME construction projects. But I feel a little bit cynical about that. Its almost as if they know that a very few females will attract a lot of publicity and divert attention away from the very real restrictions that nearly all other Muslim women have to suffer every day of their lives.

beaucoup if thats true thats incredibly cruel of him. Surely he must have known there was the possibility of her leaving the country at some point as she is on the national team.

scremersford some Muslim girls/women swim in women only sessions or train in women only gyms, assuming they're actually 'muslim friendly' ie no male life guards or attendants.
I'm assuming there must be at least some Muslim women who live a more secular lifestyle and are free to do sports if they choose.
I find it sad , I love swimming and I can't imagine what it would be like to be restricted to one hour a week, or whatever it is.

In an open Uni course I did the textbook had a section on the different attitudes to 'going on a walk as a leisure activity' in different ethnic/class groups. Research showed that people of south Asian descent saw walking as 'something peasants did' and walking groups/clubs etc found it difficult to entice this group into walking as a healthy lifestyle choice. Whereas with white British people walking was seen as a middle class activity.

Given how lefty liberal the ou is I think there must be some truth in the issue of sport and Muslim women.

Helena apparently it's because the date of the match clashed with the date their child starting school and he felt she should be home. Nevermind what she wanted.

I don't want men like that in my country. Women have enough to contend with in the battle for true equality and I don't see how it helps us to import men who think we are less than them.

It was in the Independant, if anyone's interested

beaucoup there are men like that in this country already, including non muslim men. My dad was like that, it's just being controlling.
Of course we do have the legal right to leave the country without our huband's (or male relative's) permission. I'm not sure about the status in Iran, if it's like Saudi Arabia.

I know there are plenty of controlling men here already, so we don't need any more!

OP, I think that you're obviously a racist, but I hope that christianity bites the dust. I also hope that any religion brought in by the refugees dies as well.