Feminists storm 'Should Wife-beating be Allowed?' debate in France and get attacked!

[Sunsoo]

And the response is sickening:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/femens-topless-condescension-towards-muslim-women-only-helps-sexism

I cannot believe people think that these women are just as bad as the men whom attacked them!

Also, why the fudge was this debate even allowed to happen? Violence is illegal in France. End of discussion!

I actually might stop reading the Gruan since they've published this article.

lush I can't help noticing that you do show a tendency in your increasingly erratic, scatter-gun posts, towards wanting to exclude other posters from the debate. You have been searching around trying to find a reason why I, an international comparative lawyer, should have her comments on Sharia law minimised, and all you have been able to come up with is an assumption that I have never practised law there.

Of course applying that analogy means that the debate becomes very limited, as anyone disagreeing with the status quo is more likely than not to come from a jurisdiction outwith your limits, but you have minimised in advance their contributions. This is obviously farcical.

And Hermione/Cheezy I don't think 'equality' is what Femen wants at all. Of course I don't actually equate them with the Nazis - the word 'nazi' is often used to refer to someone who is militant or fanatical about something - like 'God my dad is such a nazi about homework'. Hence, it's a turn of phrase and not just used by 'misogynists' (another term that's too often misapplied, but that's for another thread). Jeez, you couldn't wait to leap on someone for daring to be 'antifeminist', could you? Made a rod for my own back, there.

Anyway, back to the point.

Fair enough if you simply haven't had the opportunity to visit a country or interact with Muslims.

And in actual fact, without wishing to disclose too much personal information about myself online, you are incorrect in your assumptions (and in much else - I don't get the impression that your judgement is very good).

So it seems to be the wish of some posters that feminists should just wait, however many decades or centuries reform takes, without any rude protests so as not to offend the menz.
Not my view.

All my mother's extended family have now had to flee a Muslim country for the West, because over the last 40 years they found it increasingly dangerous for Coptic Christians to live a normal life. Particularly dangerous for the women. No war, just religious opression.
Quite a different experience to that of visiting Westerners.

Racial equality under the law in the West was not achieved by politely waiting until the white folk were ready to grant it to us.
There were many decades of angry in-your-face protests.
Ending slavery in the US took a bloody civil war.

Femen just wave their boobs around, noisy but peaceful. Boobs never hurt anyone. Boobs not bombs
"Feminazi" is a word that belongs to the nastiest of the right wing media, like the Fail and the Torygraph

Scremer I'm not saying that at all. Anyone's comments are perfectly relevant and I'm not aiming to exclude you or anyone else (not that I could, in any case). I just take exception to your assumption that the ME is so awful and no right-thinking woman would ever choose to go there, and that the West is so superior.

As for my 'erratic' posts - please just try to keep up.

BigChoc I honestly don't see how shutting down a debate about the place of women in society is advancing the cause of women.

Lush 'God my dad is such a nazi about homework'....
That's a common expression in your household? okay... Might explain why UAE or Saudi Arabia is soooo much better and liberating that the UK, in your opinion, if you trivialise like that oppressive regimes and lifestyles.

But the gain, Lush, it was not really a debate, was it? It was more a "How to train your wife", without the fun and games.

Well life for me and my husband in the UAE IS a million times better than in the UK, Ofa, for many reasons - not least because I have faced less harassment here.

And also the cleaning ladies are not so uppity, I guess...

lush BigChoc I honestly don't see how shutting down a debate about the place of women in society is advancing the cause of women.

It wasn't really a proper debate, open to all and attracting qualified people though, was it? It was more of a gathering of misogynists who wanted to have their existing views confirmed. In most places, that wouldn't be really considered a debate, but more of a meeting of conspirators. If you don't like that description, then I'm assuming you find references to Nazis more acceptable. We don't really tend to use think that's funny here.

Anyway, they didn't shut it down, FEMEN simply ridiculed it, which is a long established discursive technique, particularly in the response to the farcical or outdated.

And I'm all for opening up such debates. I think their should be a requirement to advertise them to all, and to positively encourage equal gender and racial representation.

Oh rod off with your bitchy comments, Ofa.

Exactly, BigChoc.

Boobs don' t get shoved in to people violently when they do not want them.

Complaining politely and kindly does absolutely diddley shit. Complaining loudly brings violence and criticism. What, exactly, are women supposed to do then? Just shut the fuck up, I suppose.

Sorry, I should also have mentioned the top of the art malls.

Awwww, sorry!

Scremers I don't understand your obsession with 'qualified people', and 'legal professionals' here. People are allowed to have an opinion and a debate without it being supervised by someone with a 'qualification'... Plus I don't get the impression it was only men in the room. And as for the assumption that they were all 'misogynists' - what makes you think that?

lush Well life for me and my husband in the UAE IS a million times better than in the UK, Ofa, for many reasons - not least because I have faced less harassment here.

What do you do all day, seriously? I mean, not only can I phrase a sentence without mentioning my husband, but I only have to work part-time in a job that really interests me. I get to ride my horse, I can go shopping in whatever clothes I want. I can out running without covered in sweaty cover-up garments, and feel the sun on my skin in shorts and a vest. I can go to a public beach and wear a bikini. I can head off for a drive in my car in any direction I please if I see somewhere on the internet that interests me. And the reason you "face less harassment" there is not because it doesn't happen, but you have submitted to hiding yourself and your body and face away from men and limiting your activities so as to lose the normal freedoms that we have in the west. Fair enough, I enjoy the occasional Shellac nail and shopping trip with the best of them, but to base an entire existence around would have me screaming with boredom and lack of fulfilment.

It seems to me that you main occupation is the internet, and without wishing to be rude, its obvious that you have not had the opportunity of a degree level qualification or work experience, because you don't respect the normal rules of polite debate or show the necessary discipline.

Ofa if you have nothing to add to this conversation other than personal insults then I suggest you leave this thread.

I don't understand your obsession with 'qualified people', and 'legal professionals' here. People are allowed to have an opinion and a debate without it being supervised by someone with a 'qualification'...

I simply think its a good idea that debates on the law have a high element of lawyers involved, and that the law is enforced only by those that are legally qualified to an acceptable standard. I also think separating the power of government and the judiciary is vital ie the judiciary should not only be properly legally qualified but independent.

Montesquieu thought much the same in the 17th Century, as does the rest of modern day Europe.

I'm going to stop replying to you now because I find your posts a bit farcical and not really worth the quality of answer which I have given you the courtesy of providing.

Awww sorry!

Now that was sarcasm.

Nope, I had plenty to say. I even wrote it, look it up. My comments were also an opinion on the quality of life of the formerly harassed expat and the service workers in the new paradise, where life is fair and equal for every body.

OK Scremers, you have also started to get a bit bitter and personal.

My 'main occupation' is not the internet - I've already told you that I'm a practicing lawyer. I have an undergrad degree, the LLB and the BVC as well as the post-grad legal qualifications. I am called to the UK, US and Qatari bar. I'm having a quiet day at work today, however, so I thought I'd have a gander on Mumsnet. Not sure what you think the 'rules of polite debate' are but I don't think I've been rude to anyone (other than Ofa, who is just being childish).

I love my job and find it fascinating and rewarding. I also wear shorts and a vest top when not at work, and a bikini on the beach here in the UAE. The weather here is lovely from about September to April. I too have a car which I drive off into the sunset at weekends - spent the last one snorkelling in Oman, actually. Going camping next weekend. I don't ride horses anymore but should the fancy take me there are a lot of riding stables around.

And I believe I've mentioned my husband about three time in my posts - relevant because he is a Muslim.

You have obviously made all sorts of assumptions about me and my life that come from your lack of experience and contact with Muslims and the Middle East.

What an ugly turn this interesting thread has taken. The personal bitching being directed at lush is quite disappointing and fucking disgusting.

Lush As I explained, my mother's family finally had to flee a Muslim country - concerns for the safety of the women was one of the main reasons.
The experience of Western visitors living in a privileged bubble may be quite different.

Wrt culture / religion: the Coptic Christian community, to which my mother's family belong, is thought to have started around the time of the Roman Emperor Claudius, only a few years after the Crucifixion. That whole region was mostly Christian until conquered by Muslims and brought into their empire.
The Coptic and Muslim cultures and attitudes to women are very different there, shaped by the different religions, even though both groups lived in the same countries.

Thanks Bambini. I said earlier that this is how these threads always turn out, and that I was going to check out of it. But I ended up carrying on posting because it's something I feel strongly about - perhaps I should have 'shut the fuck up', which is what some posters have implied I've said the feminist should do?

lush I can't help but notice your debating style, sorry to sound so pompous, seems to be accusing people of various things it would be quite right to accuse them of if they were actually doing them, which as far as I can see they are not.