Feminists storm 'Should Wife-beating be Allowed?' debate in France and get attacked!

[Sunsoo]

And the response is sickening:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/femens-topless-condescension-towards-muslim-women-only-helps-sexism

I cannot believe people think that these women are just as bad as the men whom attacked them!

Also, why the fudge was this debate even allowed to happen? Violence is illegal in France. End of discussion!

I actually might stop reading the Gruan since they've published this article.

Shit like this is why I distance myself as much as possible from feminists. I have no sympathy for the women, and feel sorry for the people that were minding their own business when they intruded.

hackmum I'm not defending violence. I'm pointing out that there was no discussion of wife beating, contrary to what has been claimed by Femen and reported in the British press. The transcript of the immediately preceding discussion is readily available on the Internet.

I'll be honest - when I first read this I was shocked too, but in France the initial reports were corrected quite quickly. The french can be quite racist but the press is generally better behaved than in the UK.

Pretty much every article I have read on this is full of "alledgidly" and "supposedly", I haven't seen a definitive news article stating any real facts.

But they did literally hit women! So clearly some people there agree with hitting women and should be charged!

I don't think there is any doubt that there was a scuffle, which will presumably be dealt with in the courts.

The video and transcript of the discussion that preceded the stage invasion is online though so it doesn't take much effort to inform yourself. The so-called "wife beating" discussion was completely and boringly non-newsworthy!

I always admire Femen for their courage in supporting women's rights and opposing violence against women. Stripping off and confronting men is particularly brave and very different to the usual polite protest that gets ignored by all.

I understood from the papers that part of the planned program at this conference was a discussion about whether wife-beating was something that Muslim men should do.

Perfectly justified to protest, just as the same as if the BNP Party Conference was discussing if "Paki-bashing" is ok.

Whether a gathering is religious, political or just a private club of misogynists is irrelevant:
Discussing if it is ok to beat up fellow human beings deserves protest.
Belief in a Sky Fairy is no more important than a political belief.

To be fair, the papers also said that an imam had told the audience that men should treat women gently, because Mohammed didn't beat his wife.

I understood from the papers that part of the planned program at this conference was a discussion about whether wife-beating was something that Muslim men should do

So discussing domestic violence is not permitted for Muslims?

Islam is a religion in which scholars like to sit down and discuss aspects of it. That's because there is what is said in the Quran, and what's said in the Hadiths (a description of the life of the Prophet Mohammed). As with any religion, meanings of words can change in a millenia, and sometimes the true intention of what was said can be lost. Not only that, much of what is said in the Quran can easily be tainted by culture. For example FGM and veiling. Neither are in the Quran, but it has been twisted by local cultures to support both.

In order for there to be real change in Islam, meetings like the one Femen crashed are necessary. Meetings among scholars, like this one, have resulted in the veil being declared not compulsory, bans on FGM, changes in domestic violence laws (in favor or women) and changes in abuse laws for children in many Muslim countries.

I appreciate Femen has a point to make, but I'm not necessarily sure they are going about it the right way. Joining in the conversation would be better then trying to stop it.

Saying that there is never an excuse for violence.

I do not think there can be moderate discussion about wife beating. The only acceptable thing to say on that subject is that it is totally unacceptable.

And while not all muslim men are oppressors and not all muslim women are victims, it is true to say that in muslim countries women have fewer rights and freedoms. I read yesterday about the female captain of her country's football team being unable to travel and compete because her husband said no. That's fucking outrageous.

Seems to me that some men want freedom to debate while simultaneously denying freedom to everyone who isn't them.

We hold certain values about the rights of individuals and it's not on to give any religion or culture a free pass to stamp all over those rights. Actually, it's not really anyone's culture - it's an excuse for bullies to oppress those who are weaker in their society.

I do not think there can be moderate discussion about wife beating. The only acceptable thing to say on that subject is that it is totally unacceptable.

The vast majority of Muslims would agree with you that wife beating is totally unacceptable. The issue is with the few that wouldn't (men and women). Perhaps the "moderate" discussion was about how to get the point across to those who think wife beating is ok?

The West took centuries to develop our values (not to long ago wife beating was totally cool and expected), you can't expect these countries to change over night or see your point of you right away.

I don't think we can expect other countries to change overnight but western countries should not even entertain the notion of tolerating the oppression of women and gay people.

Sure, in an ideal world we shouldn't. But cutting them off doesn't help anyone, especially the people being oppressed.

Living in the Middle East I can say that the countries with the most amount of ties and support with Western countries are the ones changing most rapidly. Especially in terms of hearts and minds of the people.

The amount of victim blaming on here never fails to astonish me - people saying they have no sympathy for the women who were physically assaulted for excercising their right to protest. I hope the assailants are brought to justice.

And as ever on MN the elephant in the room is avoided - that if you were to draw a ven diagram of people with a regressive attitude to women's rights and Muslims there would be a hell of a lot of overlap (and I say this as someone whose family are Muslim and comes from a Muslim country so don't you dare scream "islamophobia" at me)

I struggle with this sort of thing because I passionately believe in the right to free speech, even if what is being said is deeply offensive. I've always taken the view that not saying something, doesn't mean that view goes away, only that it is hidden and I would sooner know the truth about what someone is thinking. Then I come across people who would have no respect for my right to freedom and I think why should get to enjoy rights that they would deny me, given half a chance?

And while I respect a person's right to hold any religious belief they choose, I don't see that I have to respect the belief itself or hold it as more important than my own beliefs just because it is a religion. It makes no difference what the religion is.

Thefitfatty: "Perhaps the "moderate" discussion was about how to get the point across to those who think wife beating is ok?"

Or perhaps the way to get the point across is to say: "You live in a country where it is against the law to beat another person. If you do so, you will go to jail."

The threat to go to jail is useless if no one reports it's happening.

Good for the Femen women to show their breasts. It is getting quite hard for some of us where most women are covered just to wear normal clothes which show our shape. The human body is beautiful. If a God invented us I am sure she would be very pleased if we showed our bodies.

The muslims need to realise that the Koran simply says men and women should dress modestly. It does not require subjugation of women and all the silly rules which I am sure their God weeps over which keep women down. As we are about to have 1m more of these people in our midst we do need the debate.

Really? Does that just apply to religious groups or would it apply to political groups too? Suppose the BNP held a meeting discussing whether it was OK to beat up black people or Jews, should we just let them get on with it?

actually i would say yes but only in the hope they would come to the conclusion it was not ok

personally i feel the women have just proved the men's point and justified their actions in their own mind

Hang on. You are basically saying that women have to moderate their behaviour so men dont think badly of them.

Free and open debate is one of the hallmarks of a secular society. Freedom of thought and speech is vital. The utterly vile Westboro baptist for example - hideous though they are, they cannot be subject to government censure for their views. Similarly, this group - utterly awful but they have a right to gather and discuss.

However... Free speech does NOT mean you get to say whatever you want with no repercussions. The government cannot stop you, but if for example, a load of hells Angels and gay activists show up at a Westboro protest to shield the families, then hey, that's free speech too. So is a bunch of Femen activists turning up at a debate on wife beating.

Femen had a right to peacefully protest this gathering. The gathering had a right to go ahead. The ONLY way we are going to tackle hate, misogyny, racism etc is to tackle it head on through peaceful counter discussion, not through banning things.

hackermum above said something I passionately agree with. religion does not get a free pass we MUST be free to criticise, mock and refute any aspect of any ideology we like. Too often people are putting down debate by yelling "islamphobia" to silence people.

Let me be perfectly plain - there is a huge difference between hating/discriminating against a person due to their religion (wrong, illegal) and disliking/arguing against an ideology that a person holds (perfectly ok.) it is not islamophobic to say ' hmmm now, I'm unhappy with how your religion treats gays/women" just as it's not anti Semitic to enquire why the Israeli army was using white phosphorus shells in gaza.

By blindly yelling "xophobia!" We stifle debate. We need to make sure the ideal is a secular society where individuals are not discriminated against based on religion, but those religious idelogies are not immune from scrutiny. Otherwise we are fucking doomed.

I'm sure in the minds of some of these bizarre apologists for misogynistic violence it's somehow all the fault of Western foreign policy

They then shouted at the crowd until they were forcibly removed by security

Forcibly removed? Can I see the video she watched?

They were physically attacked by those men.

I can't take anything she writes seriously after that.

It doesn't surprise me in the least coming from the Guardian. Tolerance has backfired hence we have the allowed repression of women and it's all allowed in the name of political correctness.

I agree with skiptonlass.

Free speech is much more highly valued in France than in the UK. It's also a much more secular society where religion gets much less pandered to (as an atheist this pleases me greatly - no religion in schools for a start). The conference had a right to go ahead; if incitements to violence occur, there is a legal process to deal with it.

But there was no discussion of wife beating or at least not in the discussion immediately prior to the Femen stage invasion - it was a discussion about mutual respect in marriage. The wife beating stuff was made up by the Femen activists and repeated uncritically by the press.

Regardless of whether the Femen protesters were in the right or not (I personally think there is a place for protest as long as it remains respectful -and lying to the press doesn't get my respect), the violence that followed was plainly illegal and will no doubt get dealt with by the legal system.

Children too. Plenty of children my children go to school with (who are almost all from ethnic minorities) are hit at home or were when younger. The imported culture often breaks the law and we don't hold it to account.