Feminists storm 'Should Wife-beating be Allowed?' debate in France and get attacked!

[Sunsoo]

And the response is sickening:

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/femens-topless-condescension-towards-muslim-women-only-helps-sexism

I cannot believe people think that these women are just as bad as the men whom attacked them!

Also, why the fudge was this debate even allowed to happen? Violence is illegal in France. End of discussion!

I actually might stop reading the Gruan since they've published this article.

scremersford it'd lend your argument more credibility if you learned to spell Qatar correctly. FWIW lush is a barrister, her name means lawyer teacher.

Equally, the argument from Muslim apologists seems to follow the same tracks - "you don't understand our history, you can't understand us because you aren't one of us, Western values are bad, Western countries have far more problems than us, Islam has so many good features". Rather than meeting critical comment with reasoned responses, its met all too often with attack. It simply never moves on. There is no desire to learn from others and to improve.

My comment was "What do you do all day?" I think that's a very valid question to ask a woman who lives under a regime where most women's freedom is curtailed and where equality is not achieved. I think its a question that should be asked more.

Awadebumbo Sorry Mistressmia but where do you see Muslim women making excuses for misogny on masse.

I think a lot of us are exasperated by the lack of quality education (seriously, a lawyer who cannot describe the process of legislation in her own country?) that results in a lack of challenge of denial of basic human rights. And I don't just mean women. I mean all those who labour under basic slavery conditions in those jurisdictions which turn a blind eye to it.

And being perfectly honest, I'm really in favour of the topless protest, because it ridicules the indefensible. I personally find it ridiculous that women are expected to cover their heads (not their sexual characteristics, their heads and parts of their faces) just to go out in public. That is ridiculous, because it constrains what women can do physically.

TheFitFatty Sorry you all need to read history books before jumping on bandwagons

Are female Afghan warriors and sultanas in ancient times a myth then? I've always wondered.

a lawyer who cannot describe the process of legislation in her own country?

Or who refuses to engage when peremptorily and high-handedly ordered to do so by someone with an unpleasantly hectoring debating manner?

Do you really think even in countries where women do not have the freedoms that we have that they do not have the ability to form their own support networks run their own businesses, create something for themselves ?

Or who refuses to engage when peremptorily and high-handedly ordered to do so by someone with an unpleasantly hectoring debating manner?

A barrister who cannot defend herself is pretty useless. The legal profession is a tough world, and if lush is in any way engageable whatsoever, it is mild compared to the professional standards she would be expected to comply with.

What is so unusual about discussing the legal system of your own country if you are a lawyer? Particularly in a debate about the basic human rights of women? Or why limit it to women? Qatar has plenty of other areas of concern to discuss.

In my job I meet lawyers from all over the world, and its very competitive. There are certain things you are expected to know, and to know well. I have never come across a lawyer who doesn't understand the importance of the separation of powers before.

*Enthusiasm Do you really think even in countries where women do not have the freedoms that we have that they do not have the ability to form their own support networks run their own businesses, create something for themselves ?

What if those women don't come from one of those very rich elite families who can afford a Western education for their daughter?

What if those women want to be athletes, or politicians, or criticise the regime under which they live? What if they want to be able to drive themselves in a car, without getting a relative's permission first?

What do they do then? How supportive are those "support networks"? Are men allowed in them?

and if lush must send in the cavalry to fight her battles, could she at least make it less obvious/more effective?

FFS she's fannying around on the internet not arguing a case in a courtroom. I have a fairly high-powered job myself; I wouldn't engage with someone demanding I justify my qualifications by answering some ridiculous essay question either.

Oh and F off with your insinuations. I have no knowledge of lushi other than remembering her name from a "what is your job and how much do you earn" thread a while back.

and while we're on the PA strikeouts it's Utopia not Eutopia

and while we're on the PA strikeouts it's Utopia not Eutopia

Oi, I'm not having that! I have my limits, and the validity of an "Eu" spelling is one of them! ("Utopia" is a fiction and relatively meaningless, in the context, whereas "Eutopia" is the correct spelling in English of a Greek word referring to an actual place).

Sorry Mistressmia but where do you see Muslim women making excuses for misogny on masse

Just a few examples of obsfucation and denial:

-"the hijab empowers me"

• the justification of inheritance laws on the basis that it empowers women to spend their money as they wish (and hence men should get the larger chunk) i.e. Islam has given them freedom from that responsibility

• the total denial of the reason (Muhammed's marriage to Aisha) of why child brides are so rife in the Islamic world and why muslim men the world over are pushing for a lowering of the marriageable age iraq-poised-to-legalize-marriage-for-girls-as-young-as-9/

-"'beat' doesn't really translate as 'beat'"even though classical Arabic scholars have confirmed that it does "and anyway its metaphorical"

-"men can only have 4 wives under certain stringent circumstances" (not true - all they have to do is treat the wives equally materially, sexually and emotionally)

....& all the other crap we've heard on other threads as well as the stock answers about 'not real Islam', 'its culture not religion' etc that's trotted as arguments against any criticism of abhorrent Islamic practices.

Would you like me to cherry pick some quite disturbing Christian misogyny for you as well.
And who are you to tell another women what empowers them? It's not up to you. The very fact that you would seek to dictate to another women how she should go about gaining her own liberation, can you not see how patronising that is. Your post don't come across as caring about the about Muslim women at all but seeking to impose your version of civilisation upon them because you feel it to be superior.

Scremersford I am not sure the point you are making

I responded to lush being asked what she did all day

I am well aware of the repression of women in many countries around the world and of their fight for equality I am also able to understand that religion and culture play a different role in different societies and our way may not seem the right way to a woman in Saudi/Egypt etc

And who are you to tell another women what empowers them? It's not up to you.

I agree; lets discuss facts and morality. Personally, I could not live in a country which permitted slavery. Trafficking of women from poorer countries for prostitution really concerns me, although its relatively small in scale in the UK compared to some other countries. High levels of deaths and life-changing injuries to cheap foreign labour would also concern me if it happened her. Or what about beating and sexual assault of foreign labour? What about education? To pick Qatar only, because I've been looking at it, it came near the bottom of the PISA test of maths and reading and skills for 15 to 16-year olds. Its constitution permits, in writing, beating and flogging, as punishment (contrary to the UN Committee Against Torture). What about racism? Higher punishments for sexual crimes, such as adultery (!) when a non-Muslim is involved? Fancy a divorce? The new legislation, introduced in 2006, preserves the rule that a female's testimony is only half the value of a man's and in some (arbitrary) cases, a woman's testimony may not be accepted at all.

So even getting away from the female empowerment angle, and talking about very basic morality and fairness, there is a lot of that I object to, on the basis that it makes other human beings lives a misery.

Your post don't come across as caring about the about Muslim women at all but seeking to impose your version of civilisation upon them because you feel it to be superior.

You are right to some extent. I am not fulfilling some expectation of magnificent caring maternal being to all Muslim women. Its strange that you think that I should ie you can only envisage women in a very restrictive and pre-determined role. What I am interested in discussing is the misunderstanding and benign propaganda about Sharia law, to the effect that it is not the archaic, problematic legal system that it actually is.

Would you like me to cherry pick some quite disturbing Christian misogyny for you as well.

Cherry pick all you like, but your false moral equivalence is redundant considering that other than a few isolated fundamentalist churches preaching that guff, the majority of the Christian world doesn't practice those teachings anymore.

seeking to impose your version of civilisation upon them because you feel it to be superior

I have no qualms about saying that Western civilisation is far superior and I would rather live here than in any Islamic one. Clearly in your book though its ok for millions of muslim women to be living utterly miserable lives.

Obviously yes I do Mistressmia you completely nailed me on that I've been uncovered.

Well then if you don't stop saying that 'we' i.e. Western women shouldn't be commenting or criticising.

Muslim women haven't exactly got very far anywhere in changing anything so how about 'we' give it a go by directly attacking the source of the problem.

Mistress is Where did I say that you shouldn't comment? What I had issue with was the sweeping statement you made about Muslim women effectively blaming them for their own oppression.
It's all well and good for people to sit here and rant about how stupid Muslim women are for just sitting there and accepting there lot and doing feminism your way do you really think there are no Muslim feminists or no Muslim feminist groups how about reaching out to these groups and offering your support if you are concerned about these women. Ranting on the internet is all well and good but if you really want to help you have to listen to the people you're trying to help

Its astonishing how much anger there is about basic human rights, and how much apologists will wriggle to discuss anything but the truth.

Ranting on the internet is all well and good but if you really want to help you have to listen to the people you're trying to help

Again we fall back on this belief you have that women should fall into some caring, helping role and that should dominate all of their actions.

There are many different things that can be done. But its great to see more women engage and be aware of these issues, wherever they live in the world and whatever ethnicity or religious persuasion they are. I think we need far more women to come out and speak about just how ridiculous and offensive many Sharia law norms are when it comes to women (and other issues) and we should be very wary of prescribing how that should be done.

Restrictions on womens' freedoms is offensive to all women.

do you really think there are no Muslim feminists or no Muslim feminist groups how about reaching out to these groups and offering your support if you are concerned about these women

I can't offer any support to those who do nothing other than tie themselves up in knots trying to turn black into white by offering ludicrous re-interpretations of religious texts. Interpretations that hold no legitimacy and are rejected by the religious establishment, who are of course the authorities on such matters.

There's a reason why they're not making any progress and its because they are attempting to do so through the prism of Islam still and continuing to promulgate the false idea that Islam preaches something that it doesn't.

if you really want to help you have to listen to the people you're trying to help You assume I don't know what they are saying. Why ?

Because Mistressmia you don't sound like you want to help you sound like you want to tell other people what to because you feel you are superior and making people do what you believe is best for them is just a confirmation of that. If you are involved with helping Muslim women I think you might need to actually listen to what these women are saying to you instead of what for a gap in the conversations on you ram your opinions on them down their throat. Because after reading your posts on here I would not see you as an I would not see you as an ally in anyway.
I see no compassion or understanding for Muslim women just sneering and a superior attitude.

I apologies for the typos I'm on my phone.

making people do what you believe is best for them

How can it not be best for them and for their societies as a whole to stop living their lives based on outdated, repressive and frankly ludicrous religious dogma that discriminates against them and leads to inequality and misery for so many.

I see no compassion or understanding for Muslim women just sneering and a superior attitude

On the contrary, I have immense compassion for the plight of those muslim women and minorities who are being abused and discriminated against due to Islam. I understand that they are often in no position to be able to help themselves. All the more reason why others should speak out. Thus my sneering and ire is reserved for the privileged free-er ones who continue to give Islam legitimacy and promulgate a false narrative about it.

twist barrister like what kind? And anyway big deal, some of the silliest people I've known are ' barristers', 'lawyers' etc. Also, to be fair, some of the best, kindest and most balanced.

Awadebumbo Thu 17-Sep-15 22:43:47 Ranting on the internet is all well and good but if you really want to help you have to listen to the people you're trying to help

Sadly, the poster doesn't want to help Muslim women. They appear on every thread that mentions Islam, honestly it's like bingo, purely to sneer and condemn Muslims, especially Muslim women. There is a clear agenda and superiority complex. Predictably played out yet again on this thread.

MM your militant and extreme opinions only further alienate you from being anywhere close to claiming you are supporting women. Belittling women, accusing them of not knowing their own minds and being outright liars is anti woman and misogynistic.

I'm sorry Scermers I have to disagree you type. Where did I imply that it was a woman's duty to support other women. It's just that on a thread hectoring and criticising Muslim women I'd of thought someone would have had some idea of how to support them not just sneering at those who are in need of help and support.
But yet again it seems only the right kind of woman is worthy of your help and support.