To think an English teacher should know the correct pronunciation of Glamis?

[susannahmoodie]

As in Thane of......?

Or is it now ok to say "glam-mis"??

Completely agree with posters pointing out that we have little to no proof of how Shakespeare pronounced anything, his spelling was 'creative' and he probably had little first hand knowledge of Scotland.

holly you are right and whats more, the line of Banquos you quote is bloody difficult to say with a single syllable. Try it (I can't, my granny's ghost will haunt me ). Two syllables and it flows, one syllable and you get a horrible hiatus in between the last two words. Which S sometimes does for effect but I am not sure this is one of those times. I suspect he just didn't give two hoots.

*mrsbartlett but in the first line of the famous Lady M soliloquy he'd have to be messing with the metre by using the one syllable version. It needs two syllables to be a perfect pentameter but one syllable slows it down and emphasises the first words.

I love the fact that this thread has continued for several pages after holly settled the matter conclusively. All very enjoyable and educational, though.

I actually think, fwiw, that Shakespeare works much better when pronounced in a regional accent, such as Yorkshire or Brummie. It's easier to understand, somehow, as well as (possibly) being more authentic.

There are an increasing number of Original Pronounciation productions of Shakespeare which reproduce how the language would have sounded when the plays were written. Ben Crystal's company specialise in these, an example here if anyone is interested.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=qYiYd9RcK5M

I'm not so sure I did 'settle' it, but thanks hackmum!

Bog - I love this stuff from your granny. I had heard of saying 'the Scottish play' but not superstitions against quoting altogether! I do sort of love that stuff in theatrical lore, and especially the idea that it was properly cursed by some real witches, either for nicking their cooking pot or for nicking their words, or for portraying them in a less-than-attractive way. I don't care that it is totally fabricated; it is one of those lovely stories that is too wonderful not to believe.

However, I imagine all this aversion to quotation makes writing a paper on the subject a bit of a mare! Do you simply avoid all references that aren't line numbers?!

oh I totally agree Bogburglar I was just trying to show how maybe we could cut this teacher some slack as really we don't know how Shakespeare meant things to be said and that one miss pronunciation doesn't mean they are a rubbish teacher.

Totally agree with that too Bartlett!

Holly, I must have written an essay for my Shakespeare paper on the subject so perhaps I gave myself a dispensation. Am still alive ...

My granny was very theatrical indeed - acting until two days before her death at 82. So I don't quote the Scottish Play and my otherwise brat like children have impeccable theatre manners and have visited the RST at Stratford age 7

I love Macbeth and have seen several adaptations and can honestly say I've never noticed the pronunciation!

Not too long ago, I watched a TV program on here in the States called Haunted Castles of Scotland or some such and Glamis was featured. The Earl of Strathmore (owner of said castle and whose heir is called Lord Glamis) was on being interviewed. I am pretty sure he said Glaahmz with a long/broad a sound. I remember because I had only heard it pronounce Glamz in Scotland when I was a student there. I assume Lord S's pronunciation is because like most Scottish aristocrats he speaks with an English RP accent. I did study the play in high school and was taught to say Glamz.

The Queen Mother was not born there but Princess Margaret was.

I LOVE Macbeth - I pronounce is Glarms - like arms - I couldn't give a tiny rats wank if other people care about that

ghosty I take it you are a non-rhotic speaker? I pronounce the r in arms.

While we're at it, Romeo and Juliet - Mon-tayg or Montag-you?
I don't have an English degree, it's Theology but it is from Cambridge - not sure where I am in the pecking order.

Montag-you. Metre (all previous discussions notwithstanding) doesn't leave you much room for manoeuvre with that one.

You probably need a degree in theology to understand half the references in 'canonical' English Lit

What does a rhotic / non-rhotic speaker mean?

Shadow Here is a short video where you can hear the difference.

For example, rhotic speakers fully pronounce the r in words like drawer and father; non-rhotic speakers don't.

English RP is perhaps the best example of a non-rhotic accent. Most American, Irish, and Scottish accents are rhotic.

7 pages too late, but yes to whoever asked, I have a degree in English. I taught in Scotland where we don't have a prescribed syllabus like England. I've read and seen plenty of Shakespeare but haven't seen Macbeth. It's not shocking or terrible, I just have had plenty of other plays by Shakespeare and indeed other writers which I've had more interest in to engage with. It hasn't done me any harm as of yet and I seem to be coping. If I had needed to teach it I would have read it, thus not realising that I would be mispronouncing a word.

Ps- I skipped first year when gaining my prized four year degree. I'm now sad to have not spent that extra year studying as clearly learning to pronounce Glamis would have made me a better teacher.

More importantly, why are schools still teaching this?

Have no other books been written in the intervening period that are more educational, inspiring and interesting???

Why are schools still teaching Shakespeare? Are you serious?

I have flicked through this thread in a desultory fashion but I really must take issue with people who suggest Glamis should be pronounced Glarms

How ridiculous - it is "Glams".

I hail from that area originally so that's that.

And "Menzies" is Ming-is

Unless you are Dundonian where Menzieshill is pronounced (wrongly) as Meenis hill

Menzies = Mingis

Dalziel = Dee-yell

Simple

THERE is NO "R" in GLAMIS.

Stop bloody putting an "R" in it!!

I don't think RP existed when Macbeth was written.

Pronounciation and accents have changed over the last 40 years, never mind the last 400 - just look at a film like 'Brief Encounter'.

Milngavie? Love that one!

Presumably we will all be regrouping here on 2nd October?

They seem to be using Scottish accents. However I don't know whether they will be using the correct 1611 pronounciation of 'Glaaayooooormz'.