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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think Corbyn is dead in the water

435 replies

oldshilling · 15/09/2015 18:39

Yes he's a nice chap with a nice beard, but silliness (principled though it might be) like refusing to sing the national anthem is not going to endear him to more than a small minority of the population.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34263447

And the signs are that he intends to be the gift that keeps on giving, in terms of pointless gestures that don't really achieve anything but make him a mega-target for the right-wing press.

Either he gets turfed out before the next GE, or he surpasses Michael Foot as the biggest loser in Labour's history.

OP posts:
MamaMary · 15/09/2015 22:04

I would never decry the role of trade unions in British history. Unionised politics played a vastly important role in developing a more inclusive and fair state - beginning from the 19th century. But in more recent years they have developed a reputation for being greedy and led by unprincipled fat cats.

Where do my thoughts come from? Where do anyone's view comes from? What I've seen of JC - and I've watched his speeches - has left me underwhelmed. We only really have his documented past and his recent actions to go by - a host of poor decisions based solely on doctrine rather than wisdom or insight.

If JC is leader-of-country material he better start engaging with the media and convincing the public. So far he can't be bothered to answer journalists' questions. This is arrogant and very short-sighted.

I'll admit a polished presentation is not everything. And his lack of polish has endeared him to many. But when he has only 9% of Labour MPs supporting him, successful leadership looks doubtful.

Ta1kinPeace · 15/09/2015 22:04

Micksy
I don't think people realise what zero hour contracts mean.
They mean casual work and have been around for ever.

They mean you're rota-d to work from 2-9 but you get to work at 2?? and your employer makes you sit in the staff room till 5, then sends you home for no pay at all.
Those ones - exclusive rights type - were outlawed by the Tories, after being allowed in by NuLabour

There is nothing wrong with casual work : bar staff, Saturday girls etc
In fact in countries with strong unionised labour rules, unemployment is far higher than in the UK

Hellocampers · 15/09/2015 22:05

So there are actually posters here who really believe that the British public will vote for a prime minister who refuses to sing the national
anthem and would scrap our nuclear deterrent!

Naively in kids and teens is acceptable, over the age of 25 it's fucking stupid.

Oh and yes psssst! The actual end game isn't to move the Labour Party to the left it's actually to get elected to power at a general election.

Ta1kinPeace · 15/09/2015 22:08

Hellocampers
scrap our nuclear deterrent!
Who are we deterring with those £6,000,000,000 submarines?
Not ISIS
Not Al Qaida
Not refugees
not aliens
Not climate change
Who then?

Hellocampers · 15/09/2015 22:08

Don't fret Mamma they will get rid of him within a year.

He can't refuse to take questions and be grilled by journalists forever how ever arrogant and idiotic he is.

As a labour supporter I feel total and utter despair.

ElizabethG81 · 15/09/2015 22:09

Who knows what the British public would vote for? I wouldn't have thought people would vote for a party who were quite clearly going to screw over everyone but their old schoolmates, but they did.

AlpacaLypse · 15/09/2015 22:10

As an employer I have absolutely refused to use exclusive zero hours contracts, although my accountant advised me to do so. I think they're due to be banned by the current government? I do hope so. Instead I use a self employment model, which gives my people the opportunity to say no and walk away with no hard feelings either side. I also pay everyone Living Wage or more, so they have the opportunity to spend it on what is best for them, not what I think is best for them, or what HM Revenues and Customs thinks is best for them.

Scremersford · 15/09/2015 22:11

MaudGonneMad Do you know why you have very strong employment rights, Scremersford? Holiday entitlement? Pensions? Health and safety legislation? Maternity pay? To name but a few?

Other than the Factories legislation which eventually resulted in the criminal provisions of the HSAWAct74, enforced by the HSE (not by individuals in the workplace), all of those stem from the requirement to conform to the anti-discrimination provisions in the then Treaty of Rome 1957, as modernised and updated by the requirement of direct effect, the duty of sincere co-operation, the more recent principle of mutual recognition and so on, and its more recent interplay with fundamental rights. Have a look at TEU and TFEU if you don't believe me.

But it was BECAUSE of the unions fighting for their members that such things became the law for all of us.

No, it wasn't. It was because we joined the then EEC in 1972 and had to bring our laws up to date with European legislation. The holiday entitlement we currently enjoy for example stems from Directive 2003/88/EC, the Working Time Directive. Our right to equal pay, which has been around since 1970, stems from now Articles 18 and 19 TEU and Article 45 TFEU, the anti-discrimination provision, as do our rights not to be discriminated against, not just in the workplace, but in relation to accessing services, via the Framework Directive/Equal Treatment Directive 2000/78. (Now) Article 157 TEU provides for equal pay for male and female workers.

You are not seriously going to claim that the UK wouldn't have employment rights if it weren't for the trade unions, are you? Jesus Christ. There is ignorance, and then there is deliberate ignorance. Do you even know how the three different types of trade union activity are catered for in European law and how they differ between the central European countries, the Scandinavian countries and the UK, which is an outlier? The UK trade union movement isn't actually very effective at all at securing workplace influence, if you compare it to the Scandinavian system of consensus.

The problem is that people like me, ordinary, mere female people like me, who do understand employment law, are dissuaded from union membership because of people like you and other union dinosaurs coming out with rude and ignorant comments such as that which you made above. Thankfully, people like me don't need to rely on an old boy's club of a union to enforce our employment rights, because they are right there in legislation with a structure of enforcement, and thankfully individuals have more choice than wasting time getting a union rep interested in their case if their rights have been infringed.

e.g. Article 3 of that directive, entitled ??Scope??, states in paragraph 1:
??Within the limits of the areas of competence conferred on the [European Union], this Directive shall apply to all persons, as regards both the public and private sectors, including public bodies"

I'm a solicitor who does a lot of employment law work, by the way.

Mintyy · 15/09/2015 22:12

Charming thread title NOT in light of recent horrific events.

Ta1kinPeace · 15/09/2015 22:12

Alpaca
If you are paying them a wage, they are not self employed.
You need not use exclusive self employment contracts
but by golly you'd better be ready for a nasty PAYE inspection when it comes.

GingerCuddleMonsterThe2nd · 15/09/2015 22:13

I can't stand the man, I have the uncontolable urge to stamp on his foot or poke him in the eye.

I see him as rude, disrespectful and arrogant.

I also dislike his policies on many issues.

In a nut shell, he's not for me.

Micksy · 15/09/2015 22:15

I think you've captured the dilemma, mamamary. Corbyn is not smooth, which is why it's hard to envisage him in power. But it's also the reason he's got this far the first place. If he polishes up his act, does he loser his appeal?
I have no problem with people engaging with his politics and disagreeing, but I do worry how many will just regurgitate a prefab negation of any possibility of success.
Debate is good. Swallowing what the media tells us to believe is bad.
Does anyone trust the media any more? Probably not, but you don't have to trust them to be influenced by them.

Hamiltoes · 15/09/2015 22:17

a vegan for farm affairs

Maybe they'll manage to something about animal welfare and the huge environmental damage done by animal product industies? And I say that as a non-vegan.

and no senior women

So you'd rather he take Yvettes approach that shes "radical" because shes a woman? How about we just appoint the best people possible for the job?

The anthem is more than about monarchy- today it was about nationalism and respect for those who were in BOB

Nope. You can pay your respect, or not, in any bloody way you choose. P.s the "national" anthem actually directly offends a good proportion of the nation, and bears no relevance to another good proportion of the nation. Some of which will have fought in BoB. Its got fuck all to do with respect.

Samcro · 15/09/2015 22:17

he has my vote

Ta1kinPeace · 15/09/2015 22:18

scremersford
I'm an accountant - no unions in my line of work either.
So, the EU takes all the credit ..... and the EU negotiators for those treaties were .....??

I admit though I did have to laugh at the crass stupidity of the TUC voting to support leaving Europe "to protect members' rights"

Micksy · 15/09/2015 22:19

Ta1kin, they may be illegal, but what can you do about that when all the jobs in your region are like that, and you are not in a union? They are real and they are everywhere. I speak from personal experience of what is, not what should be here.

Hellocampers · 15/09/2015 22:19

Ta1Kin

Oh dear you just don't get it do you!

It's the general electorate you need to persuade and that is never ever going to happen is it!

Remember you have to look outward past your party cronies and think 'mmmm what do the vast majority of voters think about this?'

MaudGonneMad · 15/09/2015 22:20

Dear me, Scremersford, I think you need to apply the charge of 'deliberate ignorance' to yourself. Where on earth do you think European employment legislation came from? The same place it came from in the UK - the result of organised labour agitating for better conditions. It wasn't handed down on a stone tablet. If you weren't so engaged in frothing at the very word union, perhaps you'd have time to educate yourself a little.

Employment rights in the UK began loooong before 1975. Holiday rights, maternity pay, child labour law - these all date from the late 19th/turn of the 20th century. They have been advanced and improved since - yay!- but it's risible to claim that they have nothing to do with the union movement, nationally and internationally.

Pr1mr0se · 15/09/2015 22:20

FriendofBill - if you're looking for hypocritical then Corbyn style has that too, just look at this while you're listening to his speech about poverty and equality:
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11861516/Factory-workers-in-poverty-paid-just-49p-to-make-Jeremy-Corbyn-campaign-t-shirts.html

MamaMary · 15/09/2015 22:21

People aren't stupid. Both right-wing and liberal media is widely available. It's possible to build up a fairly accurate picture by dipping into both sides.

The most critical comments about Corbyn I've read (far more critical than on MN) have been at the bottom of Guardian articles.

On the other hand, a Daily Mail columnist's hysterical rant about Corbyn was roundly mocked by cynical DM commenters.

BuggersMuddle · 15/09/2015 22:23

Casual work is fine and suits some people. If a zero hours contract is offered on that basis with no unreasonable employment prohibitions, I see no problem.

Exclusive zero hour contracts though are ridiculous and need regulating. And I say this as someone who is firmly in the centre ground, although many of my leftist friends would place me slightly to the right.

Hamiltoes · 15/09/2015 22:23

Naively in kids and teens is acceptable, over the age of 25 it's fucking stupid.

Absolutely no need to throw in some casual agesim Hmm maybe you should ask yourself why all those under 25s have their "fucking stupid" opinions? Perhaps it could be that they've been shafted every which way by this govournment for a financial crisis that happened while they were still running around a bloody playground...

Scremersford · 15/09/2015 22:24

Ta1kinPeace I'm an accountant - no unions in my line of work either.

Yes, I often think I should have messed around at school and got one of my mate's dads in the unions to get me an easy job at 50k pa with no degree. Remember that INEOS debacle over a union signing up "ghost" members and then calling a strike because the union rep responsible had a tantrum? The average salary for the near 100% male employees at that plant was 50kpa. London tube drivers - again it seems to be 50kpa.

Employment law is a hugely complex field and there are numerous influences but UK unions are simply not that good. They tend to promote mediocrity and create boy's clubs and as a working woman, I simply cannot agree that they do a good job for the 50% plus of the population in this country who are not men, and particularly not for qualified women. When you compare them to the Scandinavian style unions and how they work with employers and the government, they really are very backward and poor performers.

bialystockandbloom · 15/09/2015 22:25

The more I hear him actually speak, and the more I see the extensively edited 'news' coverage of him, the more I am so thankful that so many Labpur members and supporters voted him in.

When did socialism become such a dirty word? This country has become obsessed with amassing individual wealth for c.30 years, it's about time we had a party political leader who represents what so many people actually want from a society.

The focus on whether he wears a tie or whether he sings the national anthem is pathetically puerile. The media may not be able to get to grips with someone who doesn't just talk in sound bites, but thankfully many people in rl can.

NeedsAsockamnesty · 15/09/2015 22:25

And by the way, while the media is being dominated by this meaningless stunt, the Tories managed to successfully slash tax credits, the vote passed easily today

Does 35 votes class as an easy pass?