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Well, there we have it: Jeremy Corbyn has just been announced the next Labour Leader - Part 2

193 replies

Donotknowhownottomind · 14/09/2015 20:50

Just opening the continuation of the last thread...

OP posts:
mummymeister · 16/09/2015 11:36

Garrick - err sorry are you trying to re- write history here!!

Maximum salary - it isn't about people earning millions. it is about people earning 6 figure salaries. it wont affect me directly as I earn nothing like this as I am self employed but there are head teachers on the kind of salaries he wants to cap. have a look at what he has said in details.

Michael foot was never, ever in a million years going to win that election. sorry that is an absolutely bonkers and unfounded comment. he was universally disliked by the country and it was his shambolic appearance at the cenotaph that nailed his coffin. he had no credibility and was a laughing stock as far as the average voter/person in the street was concerned.

Corbyn is a social democrat - what!!! no he isn't.

I really hope one of Corbyns team are reading this thread.

Alyosha · 16/09/2015 11:49

Garrick - what alternative history are you referring to? Remember the SDP merged with the Lib Dems and they together won their highest ever (at that time) no. of seats in 1997...at the same time Labour won a landslide.

bobbywash · 16/09/2015 11:54

Actually I've only just realised he's 66 now, at the time of the 2020 election he'll be 71. Far to old to realistically be PM, or indeed leader of the party by then. Another Michael Foot in more ways than one.

JanetBlyton · 16/09/2015 11:58

(To be fair to Michael Food the donkey jacket was quite expensive, bought by his wife and the Queen Mother said how nice it looked!)

LurkingHusband · 16/09/2015 12:00

Foot was going to win that election

The 1983 election. The Mrs-Thatcher-Single-Handedly-Beat-The-Argies-With-The-Sun-Right-Behind-Her election ?

The only electable leader Labour had before Blair was John Smith. RIP.

Hellocampers · 16/09/2015 12:05

Oh dear!

Foot was never going to win Garrick you either don't remember or you have read the wrong books.

He was utterly unpopular with the voters.

mummymeister · 16/09/2015 12:06

Thank you Alyosha and LurkingHusband. I was beginning to think that I had entered some sort of parallel universe. Yes Janet it was a very nice donkey jacket. but on these occasions the idea of looking smart is to honour the dead not the living/the queen. same as singing the national anthem. I am anti monarchy but I sing it because I am patriotic and wouldn't dream of turning up to our local war memorial services in anything other than smart business like clothes.

He is just some petulant teenager who hasn't grown up and really shouldn't be in charge of the opposition. ask those politicians around at the time of Foot and they will tell you the biggest mistake they made was not dumping him as quickly as they could.

Hellocampers · 16/09/2015 12:08

Totally agree that john smith was a huge huge loss to the country and to labour.

LurkingHusband · 16/09/2015 12:19

Totally agree that john smith was a huge huge loss to the country and to labour

If not the world Sad

There was a series on the BBC(4 ?) a few years ago. Kinda "What If" documentaries. I saw one "What If John Smith Had Lived ?".

  1. Labour would still have won in 1997
  2. The UK would never gone to war with Iraq.
  3. The UKs stance may well have averted the Iraq war altogether. Don't forget Comrade Blair was pro-war from the get-go Angry. Somehow I suspect JS would have been the polar opposite.

I will always have respect for Harold Wilson - he told the US they were on their own in Vietnam, and meant it.

Inkanta · 16/09/2015 12:21

Anyone watching PQT.

Bloody brilliant - he was great!!

Donotknowhownottomind · 16/09/2015 12:25

Really? Please tell me how (not being sarcastic).

OP posts:
Garrick · 16/09/2015 12:26

Do keep telling me how much better this government is managing our economy ...

Well, there we have it: Jeremy Corbyn has just been announced the next Labour Leader - Part 2
Well, there we have it: Jeremy Corbyn has just been announced the next Labour Leader - Part 2
Well, there we have it: Jeremy Corbyn has just been announced the next Labour Leader - Part 2
Shutthatdoor · 16/09/2015 12:27

Corbyn survived PMQs and the PM had a walk in the park tbh. although it did seem like a radio show phone in

SheGotAllDaMoves · 16/09/2015 12:31

Very low key.

wasonthelist · 16/09/2015 12:32

mummymeister
I agree that Michael Foot was never going to win that (or probably any) election. I agree the coat he wore at the Cenotaph was seized upon and I am amazed it's still being mentioned after all these years.

I think your other comments about Foot " he was universally disliked by the country.....he had no credibility and was a laughing stock as far as the average voter/person in the street was concerned." have been coloured by your own prejudice.

My recollection (and yes I was there) was that he was a sincere man who tried to address the complex political issue by debate - and he didn't stand a chance against a Tory party with a vicious charismatic leader who adopted US-style soundbite campaigning and personalised every question rather than discussing the issues.

Foot was never going to be able to engage in overly simplistic soundbite campaigning of the sort that appeals to the hard of thinking, but he wasn't "universally disliked by the country", he was disliked by Tories and some of his own side, but not everyone.

mummymeister · 16/09/2015 12:54

wasonthelist - please don't accuse me of being hard of thinking. he was not a sincere man. he was a shambles of a man widely ridiculed by the comedians of the day and in the popular culture. of course some people liked him - he got votes didn't he. A leader should look and sound like a leader and actually be able to lead.

I am not shallow and only interested in soundbite campaigning. I take the time to read what is being said by the person saying it not the newspaper or the news readers summary.

Foot consigned Labour to the wilderness. you cannot argue with that fact. to be a politician and to be elected you have to appeal to the majority of your electorate and he didn't.

Tony Benn was a great conviction politician. I didn't agree with everything he said but he was respectful and thoughtful and his views were properly thought out. he was a man of conviction and very engaging not just with large audiences but when you spoke to him one to one.

Omnishambles Corbyn is no Tony Benn or Frank Field for that matter. everyone will be comparing him to Foot. and I am sorry but rightly so.

It isn't too early to say. PMQ's wasn't different. Corbyn failed to follow up any of the answers. I have seen school debaters do a better job. No, I am sorry but he has to go. it isn't a matter of if, its a matter of when. because if he doesn't then the tories will continue completely unopposed as will the rise of UKIP.

Garrick · 16/09/2015 13:00

The third chart, spending against income, is an important one. It works pretty much like a household budget in principle.

Keynesian economics (Labour) focuses on increased earnings. If you had to pay for a new qualification in order to get a big pay rise, for instance, you'd consider it money well spent on balance - same if you were offered a new position on double your salary, but it meant you'd have to undertake an expensive house move or buy a wardrobe full of slick outfits.

Liberal monetarism (Conservative) looks at reducing expenditure before anything else. It would turn down the new job, working on the assumption you could save enough over time to reach the same financial status.

If the country were a small business, Labour would invest in new equipment or hire more staff in order to secure bigger contracts & earn more.
Conservatives would cut expenses to the bone, regardless of whether this limited your earning capacities.

Both approaches aim for a net profit in the end. Both can achieve it, but the experience of getting to that point is going to be very different. And the number of beneficiaries will be different, too - the Labour business has more employees doing well out of it, while the Conservative business only has a skeleton staff to share its revenues with.

Obviously none of our governments are pure Keynes or pure monetarist. But the one we have now is the most extreme right we've had since 1910.

Garrick · 16/09/2015 13:04

France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland are extreme left compared to our current government. Most are further left than Corbyn in various aspects.

The only reason he's being called hard left is because we've moved so far to the right. I voted for him because I want somebody to help shift "centre" back to where it belongs - in the middle!

JanetBlyton · 16/09/2015 13:09

I don't agree we have moved to the right at all! The Tories go tin because they had wet labour politics in many areas and that has to go. The country will do a lot better if it would move to the right but there is little hope of that at present.

LurkingHusband · 16/09/2015 13:11

mummymeister

One wonders where in the UK you spent the 80s ?

a man widely ridiculed by the comedians of the day and in the popular culture

That could be Boris Johnson.

Foot consigned Labour to the wilderness

No. Labour consigned Labour to the wilderness. Principally by being so internally divided, they were able to spawn a new political party before the end of the decade. That was what did for Labour.

Tony Benn was a great conviction politician.

But not a vote winner.

Whatever people might want to remember, the bottom line is Labour had to ditch CND and Clause IV before they won an election. We can spend from now until the rest of time to argue whether this was cause and effect, or just coincidence. However, it's best to bear in mind when arguing about coincidence, that German has 2 words for it Smile.

TheNewStatesman · 16/09/2015 13:13

"France, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland are extreme left compared to our current government. Most are further left than Corbyn in various aspects."

Many of those countries are fairly far to the left in terms of welfare state provision and social welfare ideals. However, most of them are not particularly far to the left AT ALL in terms of attitudes towards diversity, immigration and Islam.

Jezzer is very far to the left on those things, which is why he has no chance whatsoever of winning back the "old" Labour vote, which is increasingly being lost to UKIP.

wasonthelist · 16/09/2015 13:16

mummymeister
Not for the first time I disagree with your analysis - if being ridiculed by comedians was a determinant of political prowess (or lack) all politicians would be surely be judged hopeless.

"Foot consigned Labour to the wilderness. you cannot argue with that fact." Well unsurprisingly, I can, because it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

I don't feel it's fair, reasonable, or accurate to blame Foot (alone) for Labour's wilderness years - it's an over-simplification, just as saying that no-one liked him was. He was an easy target for the newly-popular philistine Thatcherites who eschewed any argument with a whiff of intellectual rigour in favour of a (usually meaningless) soundbite.

"to be a politician and to be elected you have to appeal to the majority of your electorate and he didn't." Well he did, or he wouldn't have been in Parliament at all. On a point of pedantry about our electoral system, you don't need to appeal to a majority at all - in this government (and for the sake of balance most previous ones), more of the electorate voted for something else, but due to our system, their votes count for zero.

I can't quarrel that Foot was never going to win, but I refuse to blame him personally for a range of changes that were taking place at the time, inside the Labour Party and beyond.

JanetBlyton · 16/09/2015 13:18

Corbyn 1984

JanetBlyton · 16/09/2015 13:22

And today
[a]www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-34263142[\a]

JanetBlyton · 16/09/2015 13:22

will try again
www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-34263142

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