AIBU to think your start time is your actual start time?

[Katie2001]

Since starting work, many years ago, I've always believed if you start work at 9, you come in at quarter to or just before so you can be ready to start. If you are held up for any reason, or have to drop kids off or whatever of course it's different. Of the two colleagues at work on the same level as me, one starts at 9:30 so comes in at any time between that time and quarter to ten, makes her coffee, eats her breakfast and is ready to actually work about ten or quarter past. The other one starts at 9 but comes in any time between quarter past 9 and quarter to ten. Neither have school age children. Maybe I'm in the one in the wrong?

I'm a nurse, my shift starts at 7, so that means I'm sitting ready for handover to start at 7. I've had to tell a few students in the past this doesn't mean walking in at 7.

I don't hold with strict start/finish times, I think it edges over into ridiculousness.

At my office my manager is happy for me to come in when I want and leave when I want (within reason obviously, can't come in for 3 hours or whatever), as long as I am getting my work done. The system is pretty much the same with everyone else I work with, and it works well.

I have had a couple of employees over the years. One arrived 15 mins before the start time, made herself a cup of coffee/went to the loo/pottered about/had a chat and was ready to start on time. The other arrived anything up to 40 mins late and frequently left early. Guess which one got "let go"?!!

If you have the kind of job where you are doing things under your own steam and no one else is relying on you then flexibility is fine. If, however, you are putting your co-workers out and they are having to cover for you then it is bloody selfish and a poor work ethic.

good lord. I guess my working day is just much less rigid than most.

I start checkin emails when wake up (about 6.30). Official start time is 8, finish at 6.

i tend to get in between 8 and 9, no lunch break (food is brought to the office), then leave between 6 and 7. carry on working on the train on the way home, and I'm often on the phone to my boss in the evenings/weekends. Occassionally i leave early (5ish), or work from home (like today).

If someone tried to tell me off for not being at my desk at 8 I would tell them to FOAD!!

same, boosie, would think people had better things to worry about really than whether I started at 9am on the dot or not.

I understand if it's impacting your work but if it's not affecting you why would anyone get their knickers in a twist if a colleague rocks up at 9am instead of 8.55?

This happened years ago in the teaching profession, when the government of the day decided to bring in "Directed Hours," the idea being that teachers 'had' to stay on the premises until 4.30pm (I think). So, a whole load of people who'd previously routinely stayed until gone 6pm (and taken a shedload of stuff home with them as well), clocked out at 4.31pm.

Counter-productive.

I had a colleague who used to come in at 7.30 or 8.00 to work quietly on her own stuff before everyone else got in, because it suited her. Then she would take a fag break every hour, a full lunch hour followed by a leisurely coffee, and leave at 3pm to pick up her kids from school. She reckoned she had done a full day, in fact she used to bang on about how busy she was. In reality she was probably doing 25 hours a week (full time salary though).

Only those of us coming in 9.30-5.30 or later (often 7pm) were the ones actually attending all the meetings, running lunchtime and evening seminars, seeing students face to face and doing the difficult parts of the job. She was completely out of synch with the rest of the team doing what suited her, and this didn't always go down well. Many of us were probably putting twice the hours in that she was doing. However she got promoted because she had the ear of all the right people.

She got away with this until the Research Excellence Framework and then I think it became really obvious her work was substandard, as it was being externally assessed, and I think her days are probably numbered now. However I know it took a toll on the rest of us, which still feels unfair.

Ultimately there will always be passengers in any workplace and it needs to be better managed than it often is.

My work place opens at 8.30, the first appt is 8.30 so our contracted hours start at 8.25. This means that the staff are ready for the patients as soon as the door is unlocked. It works.

I used to get very annoyed when people stroll in, it always felt like I was doing more work.

OP, you are right.

It depends on the job. I sometimes get in late and leave early but I work hard whilst at my desk and have been know to answer work email early in the morning and late at night. I much prefer somebody who arrives late and works that somebody who arrives early but doesn't do much work whilst at their desk.

are you their boss? Do they finish work on time? Do they take days off when their kids are ill?

I just don't see why it matters as long as people are doing their work and it's not impacting anyone else.

I can easily do my job within my set hours (usually less to be honest) because I am quick and because my workload is manageable. I generally come in for about 8.30 and leave between 4.15 and 4.45 depending on what I'm doing. I don't always take my lunch break but if I do it's not an issue.

I've worked flexible hours for years and my start time is a bit lost in the mists of time. I think from what was written down 10 years ago I should start at 8.12 and leave at 5pm. In reality I start at times between 8 (rarely) and 9.30 and leave between 6 and 9, usually I'd say at start at 9am and leave at 7pm. My hours are compressed but I'd say the company gets about 5 "extra" hours a week, I don't usually count, just focus on getting what I need to do done.

I guess this is why my workplace has flexitime and swipe-cards.
If you arrive late, you can stay late or arrive early another day to make up for it.

Or if you keep arriving early, you can earn a day off!

Or if you get a puncture/sick child you can use flexi, keeping leave for holidays.

And if you keep using all your flexi, they take time off from your leave to make it up. If you have no leave left, you lose pay.

Fair for everybody!

Maybe suggest this to your management?

Strict start and finish times are sometimes required though, people where I work are customer facing so if some one is late then others have to leave late which isn't fair.

My times aren't so strict (work alone) so if I am late/finish early I can make up the time or take it as unpaid leave. I can also finish late and 'bank' time off to use, as long as I use it in the same month. The clock in machine is used to calculate payroll and wherever there are clock in machines there is a cut off time. Employers do not pay for 2 mins, 5 mins, 8 mins etc, I do realise that clocking systems do not really work for salaried staff though.

I do think OP YANBU, some people just take the piss (not just smokers either - when I smoked I only did so on my unpaid breaks).

I'm not sure I would feel comfortable telling people I employ that they have to arrive 10-15 mins early everyday and not pay them for that.

I'm also quite strongly of the view that most people should pay attention to the work they do their own responsibilities and obligations and pay far less attention to what their colleagues do.

IME the vast majority of people who spend time complaining about their colleagues time keeping and work ethics tend to be making judgements based on a incomplete picture and have vastly over inflated opinions of their own work related behaviour

Yeah, this. All of this. YABVU to decide other people ought to be doing unpaid overtime OP. Which is what you're doing when you say people should come in 15 minutes early to 'be ready'. Fair enough to have a problem with people not actually working once they're there, but that's a different problem. You may or may not BU to think it matters what time people arrive at, depending on the type of work you're doing. Sometimes that's a big deal, sometimes not.

I agree with you OP that if you have a mandated start time that is the time you actually start work not the time you arrive.

Those who are laissez-faire about mandated start times are usually those who are also the most angry when appointments they have made do not happen on time.

For those on here who think start and finish times should be totally flexible, do they apply that logic to all forms of work? For example, first GP appointment of the day at 0900, I arrive 0855 to be on time for appointment, GP arrives 0900, takes coat off, has a wee, gets a cup of tea, starts computer, gets patient notes, calls me through at 0908, next appointment set for 0915, acceptable for me to have a 7 minute not a 15 minute appointment, or to give me 15 minutes hence being late for the next patient? Acceptable for me to pitch up at 0908 and still expect to be seen?

Flexible start and finish times are great when they have no impact on other employees or customers and the system is run properly.

In the OP's description it sounds like bad management and communication which naturally leads to resentment amongst employees.

I think it depends on the job, surely?

If you're in a customer-facing role like retail, and have a start time of say, 7am, then you need to be there early so you're ready and on the shop floor for 7am, not coming it at 7am, spending 10 minutes getting ready/making a coffee/whatever, and starting at 7.10am. That's unprofessional and unfair on your colleagues.

Whereas if you're in an office where it doesn't really MATTER if you arrive at 9.10 or leave at 5.20 occasionally, I think it's less important - so long as you're doing your job, of course.

I think there's also a divide between hourly and salaried work. If you're paid hourly, you shouldn't be paid your full pay if you come in late or go home early. That's not fair on everyone else who DOES show up on time in order to do their job/get paid. But if you're salaried, as long as you get the job done on time and don't take the piss, the hours you work don't have to be strictly 9-5.

"For those on here who think start and finish times should be totally flexible, do they apply that logic to all forms of work?"

Well, no, which is why just about everyone has stated that it depends on the job, and because that would be stupid.

Well the majority of GPs are salaried emotions, which makes a difference. I apply a different set of criteria now I'm paid to do a job than I did when I was on fixed hours for six or seven quid a time. That said, provided I don't have appointments, I can arrive or leave whenever as long as the work gets done.

But even setting that aside, not all the things you list are the same. Some of them are part of the job, such as switching the computer on and reading notes. Some, such as ensuring you are suitably fed before starting work, are not. You can do that at home, or not at all, or on the premises if your employer allows. If the last, you need to arrive early enough to do it before starting work of course. For those GPs who are paid an hourly rate, yes this ought to also include time they spend dealing with any inadequacies in the IT. If the first appointment is at 9.00 and requires 10 minutes work prior to seeing the patient, they should be paid from 8.50. I realise this doesn't happen in reality, but that's why the appointment analogy is flawed: because seeing a patient, or a client if you're a lawyer or architect or whatever, requires preparation that is also work. Hanging up your coat should you choose to wear one, however, is not.

Yes, saying staff should be on the shop floor 10/20/30 minutes before opening time is fine, but it should be paid for by the company. Things like getting tea/breakfast /going to the loo (at the start of the day) should be done outside of hours, but tidying stock/booting up computers /tills/phone systems/coffee machines is work and should be paid for!

I work 9am -5.30pm..I am at my desk with my cuppa at least 10 minutes before I start.

I rarely take lunch but leave dead on time.

Anyone who has worked shifts (with or without hygiene areas) that there are people that you don't want to hand over to you on a shift, they are either late (although clocked in on time and still changing) or talking to people at the other end of the machine and still not doing their job.

I usually start at 9ish. I say ish as I rely on unreliable public transport to get me to work, however I have the option to use flexible working hours if needs be and frankly never take a lunch break and have a couple of ciggie breaks instead so they get more time out of me that way (plus it suits me better too). I'm lucky though in that my workplace is relaxed and people do have the option of starting slightly later if they wish, if however that 9am start time was rigid then rolling in late on a regular basis is totally unreasonable with the odd episode being maybe an exception.