Women only train carriages? really????

[TheoriginalLEM]

So, i quite liked Jeremy Corbyn as a runner for opposition leadership. Down to earth, gritty etc...

Then he has the idea of women only train carriages to avoid sexual harrassment? What next? Women not allowed in pubs in case we have our sensitivities hurt hearing the odd F word?

Its a brilliant idea, why waste all our energies on trying to change attitudes, just keep the poor loves in their own safe little carriages. Will they be painted pink with little make up mirrors on the back of the seats?

Don't stop there - we can abolish sexual harrasment in the workplace by having women only offices. Of course certain jobs have a predominantly male workforce so women are going to have to step down from those career choices and stick to something more feminine instead....

Foot. Shot. Self. himself!

This is what he said, as Hama posted upthread:

Consultation on public transport
Some women have raised with me that a solution to the rise in assault and harassment on public transport could be to introduce women only carriages. My intention would be to make public transport safer for everyone from the train platform, to the bus stop to on the mode of transport itself. However, I would consult with women and open it up to hear their views on whether women-only carriages would be welcome - and also if piloting this at times and modes of transport where harassment is reported most frequently would be of interest.

I see the "what about the menz" comments have started.

Yes. Men do get assaulted on public transport. However, apart from the fact that the assaulting is almost invariably done by other men, the simple fact about this discussion is It's not about men it's about women and their inability to function as full citizens because of men's propensity to verbally, physically and sexually assault them

Many people, especially men, get very very upset when the conversation is about women and does not put men at the centre where they feel they belong Our friendly neighbourhood hackers, Jeff and Simon are males of this ilk. The insistence that women only carriages are not worth discussion if the problem of men being assaulted too is not addressed just another example of this.

Whether or not you think women only carriages are a good idea, it's a discussion worth having, if only because it exposes the reason for the suggestion in the first place.

I think it's a great idea. it would only work if trains and stations were properly staffed though. With staff who will actually do something if things kick off (often on my route the train manager will hide).

Yes, and why don't we have a carriage for minorities as well, to avoid racism? And bring back smoker carriages on long journeys, not fair to discriminate. How about a carriage for the elderly and disabled, to avoid any seating arguments? And of course, Corbyn can get the staff in, especially after making the railways public again. Will be plenty of money to fund all this, can't see any problems at all.

It didn'the take long for someone to use the 'menz' line either

I think it's an excellent idea. And I think he's going about it in exactly the right way in terms of consulting with experts and measuring whether it's a useful thing to do and taking advice.

I mean, it would be great to live in a utopia where boys aren't sexualised so early with access to porn and some men aren't quite so entitled about their behaviour towards women but we don't. I can't imagine there's many people who work with victims of sexual assault or DV that wouldn't think this is a good thing.

I would imagine if it was implemented it would be sensibly designed with CCTV and like some refuges have an upper age limit for male children (somewhere between 12-14). It would be really nice to be able to say to victims of DV that they could find their nearest tube and stay in the women only carriage until they reach safety or to tell victims of SV and DV that whilst they still have to stay vigilant, there is the potentially the possibility of travelling across London without being in terror.

And yes, I know men are victims too, I work with both male and female victims of DV and SV but overwhelmingly women are more at risk.

So personally, I think it's an excellent idea.

I still don't think he's electable btw.

I think it's great that JC is highlighting this issue of harrassment on public transport

Consulting with women sounds like a very good way to come up with possible solutions and think through the ramifications of possible solutions ?

One of my concerns about women-only carriages is that we (society) will place blame on women who choose not to travel in them and then get assaulted. "Well what did she expect? She should have travelled in the women only carriage."

'Many people, especially men, get very very upset when the conversation is about women and does not put men at the centre where they feel they belong '

Indeed.

I am so very unsurprised by how this has been reported - the usual hysterical nonsense. CORBYN WANTS WOMEN ONLY CARRIAGES!!!!!!!! What he actually said was very measured. I was particularly struck by the line about consulting with women and listening to their opinions (not that we're a homogenous group). And,call me naive, but I think he honestly genuinely means it. I can't imagine David Cameron or Gideon suggesting that they would consult with women on anything and managing to convince anyone that they're remotely sincere.

Although its also worth asking the question - just what the fuck does it say about our society that women only carriages is even a consideration? Can you imagine anyone suggesting special carriages for non-white people because, you know, racists? People would be screaming that the racists should get to fuck and quite rightly.

So what he said was perfectly measured. As usual misleading headlines attempting to smear him. Voted for him and glad I did.

Sounds to me like he is saying that he needs to consult women about the idea, as someone has floated the idea to him. In other words, "I don't know if this is actually viable or a good idea, so I'm going to speak to some women and get their opinion before making a decision."

At least he's asking women, rather than being like smiley Dave and his "calm down dear"

Perhaps posters in carriages urging people to name and shame on the spot if they are groped?

Mrs GB - if traveling on late night long distance trains isn't an issue for you and you are not concerned about safety then lucky old you. It is an issue for me and therefore I welcome the proposed consultation.

Obviously an even better set of ideas would be: 1. Having properly staffed trains and stations 2. Banning alcohol sales and consumption on all trains 3. Not letting pissed people on trains - but since those measures would create an outcry (on cost and profit grounds - FGW for example are clearly devoted to their alcohol sales income - the buffet car/trolley frequently runs out of most lines well before cornwall on the late trains but never the booze oh no - that stock is always plentiful) then properly policed women only carriages would be a workable alternative. I think they could look at alcohol free carriages too though - that wouldn't stop them selling booze but it would protect the passengers from the impact of their sales strategy. They have quiet carriages after all (which are hugely unpopular on my line and often half empty - long distance travelers tend to avoid them like the plague yet still there they are, taking up space).

Glad there's a thread on this, or I would have had to start one

I am really glad to hear him talking about this to start with. The ongoing sexual harassment of women actually making news and with a major political figure has to be something to celebrate. Finally. It has taken long enough.

I am not too sure about the idea itself. Like many people upthread I think it's making us out to be victims to start with, maybe even highlighting vulnerability and setting us up more. Perhaps a better approach would be to staff trains again, with staff who are trained in some kind of intervention strategy? If only to stop the train asap and call the police out.

But I am just so pleased that this is becoming an issue. JC hasn't declared in favour of women-only carriages, he's declared it is a major problem and he's looking for solutions. Someone on these boards a while ago spoke of actual rapes occurring on trains, in front of witnesses who did nothing to help. Women as a class are sick of sexual harassment of all kinds and it has been ignored for too long.

xpost Uhtred! Good point about alcohol too.

It's fucking outrageous that women are at risk on public transport and clearly we must change the violent behaviour of some unsocialised males.

In the interim, while waiting for this Utopia, it's a reasonable response from Corbyn to suggest wider consultation, once some women had requested reserved carriages.
Such carriages exist in some countries and cultures, as safe spaces for women. Our culture currently has decided on safe spaces in fewer circumstances, but that's not set in stone.

If this consultation indicates most women don't want it, then he should drop the idea.

I presume the idea is that women and girls would be able to choose whether to use such carriages and also could bring boys aged up to 8.

This would increase costs for all passengers:
It would only increase safety, imo, if there was the additional investment of a guard with radio for each such carriage. Otherwise, women could be isolated and in even more danger.
Also, would probably require additional carriages, for the same total number of passengers

btw, staff are CRB-checked, so it would be unacceptable to say these guard jobs could only be done by females.

Everyone is at risk of something though, Uhtred. Cannot make ourselves victims or special little flowers just because some men, and I mean some in the very minority, are wanting to do harm. It won't stop these people - those intent in being violent, either sexually or otherwise, will unfortunately be that way. Of course, it needs to dealt with, find ways of changing these things in our society. However, once again it comes down to 'poor women, men are horrible perverts and they cannot be trusted'. It's a ridiculous and quite frankly, hysterical suggestion. What next, suggest all women wear chastity belts, just in case?

Tbh I'd assume that anyone who thought like this was the sort of person that regularly blames women for being assualted anyway.

YABU.

I have travelled in such a carriage and the idea that it disempowers women somehow is daft frankly.

Japanese women get a women only train car due to them having been persistently groped. These are not on all lines and do not operate all hours. The move is an admission that years of attempting to stamp out groping have failed. Measures included posting plain-clothes female police officers on crammed commuter trains and signs warning offenders that their behaviour is criminal, rather than mischievous.

MrsGB do you freuqently have (as opposed to choose) to travel on late night long distance train services?

OP this is what happens when you read a headline and make assumptions! Lightning above puts it well IMO.

I don't think JC has shot himself in the foot at all.

I am all for it, women should be able to travel safely on public transport.

I'm not a Corbyn fan, but if he's raising it because women have raised it with him, then fair enough. With the usual caveat that "consultation" usually means "listening to the people I already agree with".

I am usually a HUGE fan of women-only spaces, but am not with this one. I can see it being used against women who use the mixed carriages: "if you didn't want it, love, why were you there?"

"It isn;t just women at risk on trains though is it. A friend of mine was assualted on a train station - my friend was a man. Total random attack."

Good Lord, really? By a woman?