To think we shouldn't have small plane 'airshows'

[JeffsanArsehole]

It seems every year in a small plane at an airshow there's some terrible and tragic accident. 7 people dead so far today.

It's not the same as large commercial craft where out of the thousands of planes every year one or two crashes.

I don't remember a year where one hasn't crashed.

We have 2 days a year of official airshow, in our region.

Many days, particularly during the summer, you can see light aircraft performing aerobatics, nearby, as there's an airfield a few miles away. If one of those planes were to malfunction and land on a even slightly busy road it could do no less damage than the one at the weekend did. The answer is not merely to ban displays at air shows.

We don't yet know what exactly went wrong at the weekend, but I suspect the eventual post-investigation answer will be more to do with the airworthiness of vintage aircraft than aerobatics.

If men reliving their lost youth want to play in fast cars or fast planes then it's their choice. If other people want to risk their lives by watching them do it then it's their choice. They must not be allowed to do it when their is a risk of loss of life to anyone else just going about their lives. If top gear starts racing cars around residential streets would that be OK?

There has been too much complacency around the whole "great safety record" mantra. I've done risk assessments, the likelihood of something happening is one factor, but the consequences of what would happen is another. Unlikely,but fatal, risks are the ones you don't take when the fatality is going to be a member of the public. Doing risky arial acrobatics over populated areas is simply stupid.

I know the pilot professionally. If you asked me to write down a list of people I would expect to make a stupid and dangerous mistake, he would probably be right at the very bottom of it. He does not need to show off - in the pilot community he is extremely well respected, recognised as having ability beyond most people, and yet is modest and extremely helpful with it. He is acknowledged as an expert among his peers - without going in depth into his very important role among his workmates (of whom I am one) he is a very moderate man, his calm and thoughtful way of working being hugely important to both his colleagues and his employer, and will be sorely missed in the challenge of coming months as the EASA changes come in. I do not think he would have knowingly carried out a risky manoeuvre.

While I realise there are people who are angry that such an accident has taken place, speculation is pointless and sometimes damaging. At this moment in time, no one knows for certain exactly what happened. So blaming the pilot/creaky old planes/the air show organisers/the sun being in the wrong place/etc is not constructive. Very few people (including myself, a pilot with 20 years flying experience) have the knowledge of fast jet aerobatics required to even make a guess at what happened. Eventually a report will be written, possibly (hopefully) with the pilot's input. Until then, it's best to steer clear of guessing what might have happened.

this is the first time a non pilot has died at a UK airshow in 50 years

Not strictly true, as in 1980 a plane crashed at Biggin Hill airshow carrying civilian passengers as well as the pilot/crew. After that, planes at airshows were forbidden to take civilians as passengers during their displays.

I know it's a different scenario from what happened at Shoreham, but I just wanted to remember those civilian deaths too.

My heart goes out to all those affected by the Shoreham crash, including the pilot and his family.

for you backinthebox, you must be upset.

Backinthebox - both me and several friends wish A a full recovery. He's the friend of a friend, as are 2 of the guys identified as having died so far.

I've heard similar about the pilot from many, many sources (not newspapers but other professional pilots on fora). I do not know him myself; I wish I did.

Blueshoes - Stephanie, you don't think pilot error could be a factor?

I did not say that and no, I don't 'not' think it 'could' be a factor. Of course this is possible. Everything about this is, as it were, up in the air at present, and your remarks sought to pin the blame directly and without question on a party who could be utterly blameless.

I don't think that's appropriate or fair right now.

Catsrus - most middle aged men wanting to relive their youth with fast cars aren't particularly skilled at driving them.

It's a false analogy and many display pilots are not 'reliving' anything, unless you count reliving last week's intense practise and the preceding years' display and practise schedules too.

If they want to relive those for an audience I think it qualifies them a little more than someone who has bought a machine well beyond his capability to handle after 30 years driving a family car.

Not intended to be snarky but it isn't the same thing at all - though I do take your point, which is that these displays do put lives at risk, normally that of the pilot being foremost, but still - rules will be changed following this.

By the way...all of the aircraft that display are designed to do the stuff they do, many as a regular thing - it isn't inappropriate and doesn't push the plane outside its performance envelope.

What I do dislike (off topic - sorry) is watching something like an A380 footling about up there when all I really expect and desire from that particular bird, is for it to fly level and in a straight line thank you very much. Quite terrifying to watch a heavy plane do anything else. IMO of course. I think it is meant to be reassuring to show people what it can cope with if it has to.

I don't think any plane is pushed beyond its limits. At Bournemouth on Sunday you had the little fighter type jets doing the acrobatics (over water) and the big old bomber types (b52 and Vulcan) did much more sedate displays, certainly no barrel rolls.

My DP is a private pilot - he's had his licence for 20 years - and does acrobatics. I hate it - it seems like such a stupid risk to me - but he loves it. However, he is extremely cautious and aware of danger and agrees that the Shoreham show took place in an area that was built up and unsuitable for an air show.

Thank you bobo that's the point I keep trying to make.

Taking risks with your own life in order to do something you love is a decision people make. We are free to make those decisions. Other people make decisions to get up close to those activities and watch them. Again, their decision. These activities should not take place anywhere where the consequences of an accident involve death for people who have not opted into taking part or watching the activity.

If I had known that the display at Shoreham went over the A27 then this would form part of my own risk assessment as to whether or not to drive down this road during the event. Quite simply I wouldn't. I also steer clear of Eastbourne during airbourne - though much of this takes place out at sea.

I have no interest in watching these machines and do not want to take the risk that I will be there when one crashes. Other members of my family take a different view.

I can understand the pilot personally isn't a 'show off' type, but isn't showing off to a crowd part of the job description for an aviation display? Such risky behaviour - risky to himself, the crowd, but worst of all unconsenting passers by - i really fear and dislike air shows because of that. If my six year old wanted to fly a 60 year old remote controlled toy plane over our local a-road and do some loop the loops I would say no without hesitation.

I agree with you cats. There should be no, or absolutely minimal, risk to people other than those who have chosen to take a risk.

I wonder if closing the A27 during the display might have worked. You have to balance the safety thing with the 'not pissing off everyone who wants to travel' thing, too. Unless you just cancel the whole show of course, which I guess many people think would be a good thing.

Closing the A27 is not realistic for something as indulgent and non-essential as an air show. I cannot believe that would ever be considered as an option.

We should be looking at banning air shows at Shoreham. Seems things weren't taken seriously since the first incident at Shoreham in 2007. And even now there seem to be air show apologists who don't even think this incident is serious enough to consider an outright ban at Shoreham.

If even the (purportedly) best, experienced and most committed pilot can mess up so spectacularly at Shoreham with utter needless loss of innocent life on the A27, what hope do we have if any other pilot were at the cockpit?

I'm not an apologist. I like planes, I'm on the fence about displays.

I don't know the answer.

I do know that air shows are vastly popular - second only to football apparently, in the UK - and so I wouldn't call it purely an indulgence for those flying.

The right to watch planes does not outweigh the right not to be killed by one. However with risk mitigation it may be possible to continue with displays for those who wish to have them, while avoiding any further tragedies for the foreseeable future.

I hope that a compromise can be reached somehow, but if they need to be stopped then so be it.

Plus, plenty of popular events are managed with disruption of other services - the Grand National, which I personally detest, and other large sporting events and so on - roads are temporarily closed all the time for things like that.

Usually diversions are put in place.

Where do you draw the line?

Closing the A27 wouldn't really work as the only other road going West out of Shoreham runs directly beneath the airport, and could also be a target should another plane lose control.

As saucy said, there is no viable diversion in place and this particular part of the A27 is already overburdened as it goes through Worthing and becomes single lane. Currently it's impossible to drive the route from Lancing to Brighton without major delays particularly at peak times as the A27 is closed.

Personally I will go away for the weekend if shoreham goes ahead again - and advise everyone who lives in the vicinity to do the same. I'd be shocked if it does go ahead next year to be honest.

Stephanie I think a big difference there is that the roads are closed/re-networked for traffic purposes and not because a giant horse might fall from the sky onto the A59 and kill a number of people in a fireball.

Fair point. Horses are probably less of a risk to passers by. But there is still disruption on a large scale, for what some may consider an indulgent and unnecessary event.

It doesn't sound like closing the road is a valid option.

If even the (purportedly) best, experienced and most committed pilot can mess up so spectacularly at Shoreham with utter needless loss of innocent life on the A27, what hope do we have if any other pilot were at the cockpit?

Inexperience pilots flying out of Shoreham on lessons could make an error or experience a mechanical/electrical fault. Perhaps we should close the airport altogether due to it's proximity to main roads and houses?

It's a bloody awful thing to happen, I know 8 people who narrowly missed getting caught in it, including my own husband and daughter. There is absolutely no doubt that things need to change and FWIW regardless of the outcome of investigations & long term implications, I don't think the show should go ahead next year as a mark of respect, however...

...I fully support Stephanie's measured view. Let's let the emergency services do their job, the CAA carry out their investigations, the bereaved grieve and the injured recover...then make an informed and considered decision on where to go wrt furture airshows.

Knee jerk reactions and trying to apportion blame before the full facts are known do no-one any favours.

I've been to the Shoreham Airshow a couple of times in past years. For me the memorable bits were the very skilled helicopter displays - search & rescue & the air ambulance (which I have sadly seen often in London when there has been a horrible car accident), parachute teams and a frenchman who flew a microlight with a skein of geese in formation. There were a number of impressive ground displays, simulators etc which were very popular with children. It should be possible to have flying events for families, in areas other than over the sea, which are hugely enjoyable despite not having very fast and potentially risky aerobatic displays. The Shoreham Airshow is held at an airport so it seems probable that pilots, who don't have the qualifications and experience needed to get the necessary approvals to fly at airshows, are doing aerobatics around the area on frequent occasions in the summer. I have a small private airfield about 10miles from my home & pilots sometimes do a loop in a plane far above my garden. They are not jets but I assume that any plane crashing on a road like the A27 could cause a multiple road accident.
Somehow, for me, although an accident, like Saturday's, hasn't happened in the past (the people killed at Farnborough, which the papers have referred to, were spectators at the airshow), it should imply that the rules & restrictions for airshows & the general licensing for pilots have been good in the past, yet it actually seems to just make it more unfair for the poor people killed last Saturday and their families & friends.

I was at Shoreham last year, and we saw a lot of people watching the displays at the side of the A27 and felt sick when we heard about what happened, knowing that if they were doing similar this year they would have been completely exposed.

I've been to loads of airshows and have never thought about the planes crashing, probably because I wasn't born the last time any civilians were killed in an accident at an airshow (not taking part in the display themselves).

I've seen the Vulcan fly low over Southend, I've seen Red Arrows fly low over Clacton, I live under the flightpath for Stansted now and I lived under the flightpath for Concorde/Heathrow for years.

Statistically you are far more likely to be killed by a commercial or private plane than one taking part in an Airshow. This doesn't detract from the tragedy that happened on Saturday, but taken in context we have a really good safety record where Airshows are concerned, and it would be very sad (and very costly for charities such as RAFA who help ex service personnel) if all airshows were banned as a result of this tragic accident.

fuck off with your spam
of all the threads to pick!!