AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

[Spearshake]

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

I agree it is bollocks but I find it quite interesting - I think children find these things interesting. They probably work out it is bollocks but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to ask questions and discuss it.

How do you expect the child of a Christian Scientist to work out that it's bollocks if her daddy, who she very much loves, constantly tells her those lies? I think as late as the age of eight-ish I told my godmother (in name, not in function) that I didn't need to wash my hands before eating because germs didn't exist. Apparently. And that was despite not living with the Christian Scientist father full time since the age of three.

I don't believe you actually understand the arguments that you attempt.

This is sadly quite obviously true for so many people in these debates. Most of them seemingly on just the one side of the debate. Funny, that.

I still haven't dared tell my mum I don't believe in God, although I expect she has worked it out. My childhood was a standard Catholic indoctrination. Fear, guilt, a paedophile priest abused the altar boys and the church knew he was a paedophile before they moved him to our parish. Y'know, the usual.

The poster above said she didn't understand why people get so riled up about religion, or touchy where children are involved.

Some may not see any proof or evidence of God or a creator, but that is their experience. Not everybody's. We have no idea what another person's experience is, we can't arbitrarily invalidate someone else's experience just because it is not our own.

If there is a God, do we really think he is supposed to be an object we could pick up and measure with our little rulers?

We all have our own experiences and we have our studies and books we've read and people we look to and respect to inform our beliefs. We all have our own unique journeys to travel. I believe my own experience and the experiences of Saint Paul and the thousands and millions of other Christians over the centuries, many, many of whom were and are scientists and scholars. And I can understand the agnostic mindset as well, and I can respect other faiths and belief systems at the same time.

Exactly noble, this is why I'd be so disappointed if my DC found religion. I've seen firsthand the untold damage it can do and I don't want that for my children or grandchildren.

If there is a God, do we really think he is supposed to be an object we could pick up and measure with our little rulers?

Yes, as it happens.

If God is real and plays any role in our universe - including material interactions with material beings like us - it is potentially measurable just like every other existent thing.

Dead handy that God only ever proves himself to people who already believe and in ways that can always, always be put down to perfectly ordinary every day events.

and I can respect other faiths and belief systems at the same time And yet you think they're wrong? That's not "respect" that's patronising.

I'd be disappointed if my children 'found' religion also, firstly because I think life is better without it, secondly because I think it's a potential gateway to something more fundamentalist. I didn't want them believing in anything supernatural, like ghosts ,or 'slenderman', or horoscopes because it's all part of the same package to me. Just be realistic and deal with life as it is.

I think people use excuses to justify their terrible behavior and others' terrible behavior. A bad person will use any convenient excuse to justify his actions whether it's "religion" or whatever it is.

People who are pedophiles on purpose become teachers, coaches, priests, policemen, therapists, anything that is a position of authority and trust to gain access to children. That doesn't make those professions, and the institutions connected to them, evil.

I agree that the despicable priests and bishops who covered up the pedophile priests are as guilty as the perpetrators and should be in prison. It is unbelievable to me that anyone would cover up abuse. These evil people are not Christian or Catholic or any other religion, they are evil people who have disguised themselves as "good" and "trustworthy" so that they will have access to children.

I think people use excuses to justify their terrible behavior and others' terrible behavior. A bad person will use any convenient excuse to justify his actions whether it's "religion" or whatever it is

Problem is, when they get their behaviour directly from the pages of a holy book - and quote the right passages when challenged - then the "It's only an excuse" line becomes very hard to support.

These evil people are not Christian or Catholic or any other religion How do you know that? Is it anti-Christian to abuse a child? How do you know....Jesus never says the slightest thing about it.

If my child found religion, I'd wonder what had gone wrong with his education. No, I'm not trying to be nasty, but the thought of him coming out with the kinds of arguments we've seen here would leave me feeling very

lashaliscious if they've been baptised into the church and self identify as catholics/christians then that's what they are. You can't say they're not just because they've committed evil acts.

Respecting others' beliefs doesn't mean we agree with them. What you said is not logical, Lemon.

Lemon, you're not able to conceive of the concept of a creator (God) being outside their creation (universe) such as, say, you and a lemon cream pie you've made, or the paradox of being part of something or everything without being in it or within it or the concept of something being immeasurable?

Ok.

Lash, of course they're Catholics! You can't just disown them because their behaviour is so vile. The Catholic church needs to take responsibility for it - the cover up of child abuse was unbelievably extensive. And I'm not just talking about sexual abuse, I'm talking about the physical and emotional abuse that has been going on in catholic schools and children's homes for years.

I'm not promoting any particular belief or faith here, and I think that a lot of what many believers say stretches credibility, is downright silly or worse (not necessarily those who have posted on here) but in my opinion it's the militant atheist posters that tend to show real high-handed condescension and overweening confidence is their 'beliefs' by dismissing belief in God as preposterous, when actually they are dismissing belief in a particular vision of God as generally understood in a medieval and pre-scientific age.... Some do still believe in such a god of course but it's a straw man (or should I say straw god). I don't necessarily agree fully with the link below, but even the most ardent atheist must surely admit on reading it that the arguments against God per se aren't as utterly obvious as they tend to argue.

www.reasonablefaith.org/the-new-atheism-and-five-arguments-for-god

www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
This puts into words far better than I can. So inspiring.

Sorry tarashill, i don't find that remotely convincing or inspiring.

"in fact, the day I chose to acknowledge God's existence, my prayer began with, "Ok, you win..." It might be that the underlying reason atheists are bothered by people believing in God is because God is actively pursuing them."

Nope. Most of the time i'm not remotely bothered by people believing in god - only when I see it hurting and damaging people. Then I'm bothered, but not because god is chasing me to believe in him .

The rest of that article makes no sense at all.

"Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

The universe exists.

Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence (from 1, 3).

Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God (from 2, 4)."

Seriously????? Where do I even start. How do they reach the conclusion that the universe's existence is down to god without one shred of evidence!

Wow.

Respecting others' beliefs doesn't mean we agree with them. What you said is not logical, Lemon

Well, sorry to drag out the dictionary again but...respect: a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.

How can you actually feel that way about something that you think is wrong?

Lemon, you're not able to conceive of the concept of a creator (God) being outside their creation (universe) such as, say, you and a lemon cream pie you've made, or the paradox of being part of something or everything without being in it or within it or the concept of something being immeasurable?

No..because all of these things are made up rubbish.

The lemon cream pie and I are within the same universe. If I'd given it a brain and eyes it would look at me. So that analogy can go straightaway.

The paradox of being part of something or everything without being in it? This isn't a paradox, it's gobbledygook. If you are part of something you are within it, if only partially. In which case your can be measured/detected within it.

If your God communicates with you, or anyone, or makes anything happen he must be detectable - like any other force or agent.

Before you tell me God is immeasurable, you must first show me your actual evidence that god exists. Otherwise I must take your word for it, and that is not acceptable.

If God is real and plays any role in our universe - including material interactions with material beings like us - it is potentially measurable just like every other existent thing

This argument doesn't really work if God transcends space and time. If God didn't do this, he wouldn't be God in any meaningful sense. In the sense you describe God, then yes, I don't believe in the God you don't believe in! That doesn't make me an atheist though... In fact most atheists seem to rail against a strange, and horrific, parody of God! It's no wonder they're atheists - I would be too of forced to accept their definitions for God!

You're "inspired" by that, Tara?

Written by a scientific ignoramus, I'm afraid.

If you're interested, please read actual science books by actual scientists. We can recommend some if you'd like.

Can we substitute insults for arguments, please. It takes all day to wade through the bile to no good effect.

This argument doesn't really work if God transcends space and time

If....?

What does "transcends space and time" mean? Do we have a single example of this ever happening?

If not, you may as well say..."Your argument doesn't work if God is a giant tree with the universe a fungus growing on the trunk".

Why can't we stick with facts.

Who's interested in "if"?

Evidence please that a) there's such a state as"transcending space and time" and b) that the creator of the universe is in this state.

And any material reaction within this universe will still be a material reaction within this universe even if it's origins are outside of it - if there's any such thing.

Can we substitute insults for arguments, please

Would you recognise one if you saw it? You haven't so far.