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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU for not wanting my MIL to discuss Jesus and heaven with my 5 year old?

999 replies

Spearshake · 04/08/2015 13:29

I was just having breakfast with my 5 year old son and he asked me, 'do only people who love Jesus go to heaven?; I asked him who told you that.
Unfortunately, my tone must have been a bit sharp (hey, first thing in the morning) so he said, 'I don't know'

(I know it's his grandma though (my MIL) because she has been staying with us for the last week and we haven't been in contact with anyone else who is likely to make such comments) Unless he has been on the evangelical channels again

The problem is that I am an atheist, so I have a tough time with such discussions. He asked me what God is the other day, and I asked him to wait until his father gets home and he can answer (he was brought up more religiously than me)

Any ideas from fellow mumsnetters of a similar religious (or non-) bent on how to deal with such ideas would be most welcome.

Thank you!

OP posts:
fourtothedozen · 04/08/2015 22:51

I am talking about christianity as a whole.

Lavenderice · 04/08/2015 22:51

DoraGora I don't know if I've missed this, but are you Catholic?

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 22:52

No, CofE.

BertrandRussell · 04/08/2015 22:53

"Are you worried that your DS will grow up with different beliefs to you OP?"
The only people I have ever met who were remotely concerned about this were people of faith.

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 22:57

Bertrand, that's merely an expression of limited experience. The second post in speaks of a DIY baptism and the mum going ballistic. I'd say that's pretty concerned.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 04/08/2015 23:02

I'll be honest and say I'm an atheist who (thinks she would) be concerned were her children to turn to e.g. Christianity upon growing up. I don't have children so I might be wrong about how I'd feel, though.

My reasoning is that I'd be concerned about what went wrong, as it were - a) what my child was misunderstanding to cause them to think there was any merit in the religion and/or b) what was happening to my child emotionally/mentally to push them towards a need for the 'comfort' of certain religious beliefs/membership of religion.

Original poster
Spearshake · 04/08/2015 23:07

Am I worried that DS will grow up with a different faith than me? No, that's not it. I was brought up by a catholic mum and a Hindu dad, both non practising. But I went to catholic school and was totally put off by the mean and bullying attitude of most of the priests and nuns I encountered. My MIL is a methodist and preaches. She is a lovely person but I find the idea of telling a 5 year old that those who love Jesus go to heaven confusing, at the best. I mean who is Jesus?? What is heaven? How do I love him? Kids should understand about other religions, of course and I am open to all such discussions but she needs to preface such statements with 'well, I believe that...'

OP posts:
DoraGora · 04/08/2015 23:08

Well, I hope I'm fairly rational. But, judging by the Armenian Holocaust, the German one, the one in Sebrenitsa and the one in Rwanda, I'd be saying that I don't have all that much faith in mankind, and God looks kindof good right about now.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2015 23:19

Absolutely she needs to preface such statements with "I believe..." or "Some people believe....".

As for the Jesus stuff, your DS is going to hear a bit about him in school (if you are in the UK). And he will have questions, so maybe now is the time to think about your responses so he doesn't catch you unawares next time.

Original poster
Spearshake · 04/08/2015 23:26

Yes, pesky kids. They always catch me unawares with these type of questions. His questions about ghosts were easier to answer. Mummy, are there ghosts in real life? As I don't believe in ghosts but I know many do, I simply said well some people believe in ghosts. He asked me about aliens. We discussed that and that there is no clear answer. However with God and Jesus and heaven, it's the notion that he can't join the club unless he believes and that is what bothers me. I'm sure that is not unreasonable.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 04/08/2015 23:27

No, she shouldn't be saying "I believe that only people who love Jesus go to heaven" either. Expressing it as her opinion is still not on.

Talk about pressurising an impressionable five year old to subscribe to your beliefs.

Do you love Jesus? If not your Nan thinks you're not going to heaven.
Doesn't matter that you don't even know anything about Jesus, or God, or religion, or heaven, you'd better love him hadn't you? Don't want to be kicked out of heaven, or let your Nan down.

It's horrible.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2015 23:29

The only people I have met who were remotely concerned about this were people of faith.

That is your experience Bert, it is certainly not true of everyone. I have met quite a few atheists who are/have been worried about it.

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 23:30

Of course there are less threatening ways of introducing religion! But, I'm guessing that has more to do with your MIL than it has to do with religion.

Original poster
Spearshake · 04/08/2015 23:34

DH is back tomorrow and I'm curious to see how he'll react. When my mum grew up, her nan told her that the devil was sitting in the hearth watching her. Horrible. Interesting that MIL never has these conversations with DS when I am in the room. I've never openly declared to her that I'm an atheist because I'm not keen on the term and the connotations. I don't want to offend her as religion is such a big part of her life.

OP posts:
LemonCream · 04/08/2015 23:38

I will never understand why so many people struggle with their understanding of this issue.

No atheist I have ever encountered or even heard of wants children "kept away" from religion. Almost to a wo/man we want them to learn about the various faiths for obvious and sound reasons.

However, learning about religion does not entail them being told by influential adults that Jesus/God/Allah is really, really real and to talk to him just put your hands together...etc. etc.

Anyone - mother, teacher, grandparent - who talks to a child like that is guilty of dishonesty. No matter how precious your beliefs are to you, or how much you've decided they deserve respect (without good reason), you don't know that your god is real and you have no business implying or stating that he is. This is brainwashing, whether you like it nor not.

"I believe xxxx, but not everyone does..." is all any of us should be saying to children. Anything else is abuse of their minds and their innocence.

Oh...and to certain "atheists" on this thread....who cares if it didn't do you any harm? Aren't you lucky because religion has certainly managed to harm an awful lot of people. But you're OK. Phew.

And if your idea of "respecting faith" that you don't share is to smile fondly on as people lie to children then your respect is worth about as much as your "atheism". Shit all.

DoraGora · 04/08/2015 23:39

OK. But, I can see perfectly decent reasons for not wanting to discuss sharing a hearth with the devil in the presence of small children. It's said that various Arctic expeditions and Egyptian civilisations were, at times, reduced to cannibalism. Who knows? Those claims might be true. But, I wouldn't discuss them with small children.

DioneTheDiabolist · 04/08/2015 23:41

It's not unreasonable OP. I think that being proactive and teaching him about other faiths, gods and afterlife beliefs will come in handy. That way he will grow up learning that it isn't just a heaven or hell scenario.

DS has me (deist), DP (agnostic), his dad (Dawkins atheist) and GPs (various flavors of Christianity). I like that. If I could get someone to take him to mosque or temple I'd encourage that too.

This parenting malarky is difficult what with all the (sometimes totally random) questions that you are supposed to have the answers to immediately.

Good luck with it.Thanks

cruikshank · 04/08/2015 23:52

OP, I'm afraid I haven't rtft but in my experience at least it isn't enough, once someone has started filling their heads with all of this cant and hypocrisy, to just say 'That's what some people believe'. I tried to stick to that stance really I did but, well, I guess if it wasn't such a powerful tool to control people then no-one would have come up with it. Whenever the subject got brought up, I would spout my liberal let's-not-offend non-biased non-judgmental lines, but I was more and more alarmed at the responses I was getting. 'Well, everyone at my school believes it and I do too' was one (it's a non-faith school). 'Grandad says I need to know about Jesus' was another and also 'We are all God's servants'. There were loads more. In the end, I realised that none of the religious folks were pussy-footing around, and had no qualms at all about indoctrinating my dc, and so I ended up telling them flatly that I didn't believe in God because I thought the stories were made up by people who at the time they made them up didn't understand scientific theory. I then got child-friendly books about evolution, the history of the planet and life on it and took the time to answer questions during reading, with my own view. Sure, you can call it brain-washing. But what I was trying to do was to limit the amount of damage that was being done and I make no apologies for not wanting children exposed to lies, nonsense and social control without being given the tools to counter it. It's a matter of self-preservation.

Garlick · 05/08/2015 00:02

One allows marriage and the other does not. Confused Is this a typing error?

I can't think of religious establishments that publicly encourage child rape or overtly prioritise mineral extraction over human lives and the planet's ecology. But many have quietly condoned both.

Garlick · 05/08/2015 00:04

Oops, missed a page! Call me backward Wink

cruikshank · 05/08/2015 00:25

until someone can prove it to me that God doesn't exist I will believe that He does.

By the same token, I believe that the universe was created by a small piece of spittal that landed on a tennis shoe and burst into flames. A passing flower saw those flames, moulded them into atoms and starbursts and got the whole thing rolling, and then disappeared into another dimension entirely where it enjoys eternal life, far away from our understanding of time and space, limited as we are by being mere humans.

Now, you might say that that's nonsense. However, you can't prove it's nonsense because you can't prove that a different dimension of time and space doesn't exist, and that the flower who lives eternally within it doesn't exist.

Therefore, your refutation of what I say is a belief. Because you can't prove that it isn't true.

(Have I got that right?)

cruikshank · 05/08/2015 00:31

*Sorrysorrysorry I used the wrong cut and paste thing for that last post. It should have been the one that said atheism is a belief. So:

Atheism is a belief

By the same token, I believe that the universe was created by a small piece of spittal that landed on a tennis shoe and burst into flames. A passing flower saw those flames, moulded them into atoms and starbursts and got the whole thing rolling, and then disappeared into another dimension entirely where it enjoys eternal life, far away from our understanding of time and space, limited as we are by being mere humans.

Now, you might say that that's nonsense. However, you can't prove it's nonsense because you can't prove that a different dimension of time and space doesn't exist, and that the flower who lives eternally within it doesn't exist.

Therefore, your refutation of what I say is a belief. Because you can't prove that it isn't true.

(Have I got that right?)

Believe what you want. But my refusal to subscribe to your belief is not a belief it itself. It is a refutation of that belief. It is the opposite of belief. It is the absence of belief.

Lurkedforever1 · 05/08/2015 00:51

Yanbu. Talking about heaven itself doesn't bother me, despite not believing in it. But to big it up as somewhere great and then say 'only people who believe in Jesus can go' is completely out of order knowing full well you don't believe in it. And that if he were to believe her, it would mean him also believing his mum wasn't going to heaven. Even if you were a practicing Christian it's not on imo to give the message no other form of belief gets you to heaven. Also unless her Christian beliefs have jesus as an egomaniac, who believed in himself over God, then following her own theory of heaven Jesus himself didn't get in.

KingOfTheBongo · 05/08/2015 00:56

I like Kierkegaard's definition of faith .. "A commitment in the face of objective uncertainty".

Under this definition, atheism is definitely a faith, too. I'm curious to know why atheists so often refuse to acknowledge this? Why is it even important to them?

Garlick · 05/08/2015 01:02

my refusal to subscribe to your belief is not a belief in itself

Exactly. I rather like your creation myth!

If anyone wants me, or some other atheist, to seriously engage with them over the question of a god's existence - they will have to explain exactly what a god is and what it does. Because "Does 'something' exist?" makes a fascinating philosophical question, but not the one under discussion.

My experience to date suggests the description of god will recede in immediacy until it's indistinguishable from the big bang theory. And "But where did the big bang come from?" is not a trump card! I can honestly & scientifically say I have no idea, unless that bit of folded-up antimatter was always there somehow - which is the same as the answer to "Where did god come from?"

In any case, once you've reduced the god concept to an incomprehensibly distant & remote event, you're a very long way from the all-seeing judge who decides if you can go to heaven after you stole a handful of pick'n'mix.

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