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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that the Calais migrants are economic migrants and should not be given asylum?

558 replies

cabbagesouppirate · 30/07/2015 08:57

All of the Calais migrants are young men. If they were true asylum seekers seeking safety from persecution they could have claimed asylum in a number of safe countries Western countries already, including France which is hardly a dangerous place. Instead they camp out in Calais, causing a nuisance, a mess, costing the UK and France a lot of money, making the lives of lorry drivers and tourists hell and the situation is becoming increasingly dangerous. I sincerely hope these people are not given asylum in the UK and any that have managed to reach the UK should be fast tracked out of the country and given economic assistance whilst they are here.

OP posts:
Sigma33 · 31/07/2015 20:00

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Sigma33 · 31/07/2015 20:02

Sorry for the multiple post - internet problems...

JassyRadlett · 31/07/2015 20:08

I strongly suspect that if you polled non-EU-nationality born residents of the UK

Hmm. I fit in that box. But then, I've never said 'let them all in' (which is why I find some of the characterisation of my opinions and personality on this thread so... interesting), but neither would I say an unequivocal 'no way'.

I think I'm increasingly of the view that there need to be more accessible and legal routes to claim asylum in the UK.

DadfromUncle · 31/07/2015 20:12

Sigma33 Some people are frightened, and many of us are extraordinarily sceptical of government claims and figures which we suspect tell us no more and no less than the government intends. The Home Office has admitted it doesn't have a clue how many spousal visas it grants, for example -
www.politics.co.uk/news/2014/02/05/shambles-the-home-office-numbers-which-don-t-add-up

The debate seems to get very polarised very quickly, as if raising questions about the contribution and cultural differences of everyone who comes here is automatically racist and unsympathetic.

We do have a duty to others in the world, but we have a responsibility to our own country too, and people here have a range of views.

I don't condone racism or ignorance at all, but nor do I suppose we can help everyone, or that all refugees are angels who will be able to make a good life here.

GraysAnalogy · 31/07/2015 20:13

I haven't seen hatred on this thread. I've seen people worried, I've seen people discussing the impact it has on us, I don't think I've seen hatred though. Unless I've missed posts.

DadfromUncle · 31/07/2015 20:17

FriendofBill If I hadn't been fortunate enough to be born here, I'm sure I could well be one of the migrants in Calais. I don't think they are fundamentally different people - any more than than I thought the rioters in the UK were. But that doesn't mean I accept some of their actions, or wish them to be admitted without question. I don't blame them for wanting a better life, but that doesn't make me want to welcome them with open arms.

Justanotherlurker · 31/07/2015 20:27

I think of it whenever I read threads like this, when so many people 'know' that the 'swarm' are criminals, are benefit tourists, are scum of the earth etc.

Maybe people would have more sympathy if they try and follow the legal route of entry, they could try and claim asylum in France and use the free movement of EU, not throw bricks at truck drivers and not rip up identification or try and deceive the authorities when they get here.

I don't claim to know that they are all any of the things you mentioned, but neither do I try and mirror the image into nazi held Germany either.

What I do try and understand is that there will be a hefty mix though and do accept that the people who have anecdotal evidence shouldn't be discounted, if you think that everyone of these people are going to automatically walk into a ~30k year job or that they are all law abiding citizens then you are being naive.

Something has to give, the problem is that if we have an amnesty and let them in, next year we will have the exact same problem as we had previously (this isn't the first time it's got to this stage). It really doesn't matter if other countries have taken more than us, if you look at the long term trend it's pretty even, we can show compassion as a country without bending over.

mumtoaninja · 31/07/2015 20:28

Not sure if it's been said or not as I've not read through all the comments, but if these people were fleeing their homeland for fear of persecution etc, why are they so desperate to come to the UK? The first safe country they arrive at should be sufficient enough for them.
The majority of these people are fighting age men. Who knows what alterior motives some of them may have.

JassyRadlett · 31/07/2015 20:30

Grays, I tend to agree except for the occasional posts (eg 'they behave like animals in their home countries and want to do the same here', 'most immigrants are not nice people'). And there's been a fair bit of playing the person, not the ball, from all sides. I don't know why we have to descend to insults (or intended insults) when people hold differing views.

I am depressed but unsurprised by the reactions Sigma has encountered to the best available evidence. I take Dad's point about skepticism around statistics - but what happens when those stats don't come from government?

And I'm really, honestly unsure how we can have a reasonable debate on this (or any) issue if any evidence is dismissed not on its merits, but because it doesn't align with someone's preconceptions or gut feelings.

DadfromUncle · 31/07/2015 20:31

Not sure if it's been said or not on average about every fifth post on the thread.

GraysAnalogy · 31/07/2015 20:37

Ah yes I agree with you on those two quotes Jassy. One of my best friends immigrated here. Defo not an animal or not nice.

One of the only things I do worry about sometimes is cultural compatibility. We do things completely different from some cultures. Like FGM for example, on the rise now. Or people are used to a certain way of dealing with things that we don't do here. Or people have seen such barbarity that it becomes not as extreme anymore. I worry for the children that will come here following what is happening in their countries because of ISIS. They're seeing barbarity from a young age. What will that do to a young mind? What influence will it have on our society as a whole?

DadfromUncle · 31/07/2015 20:43

One of the problems with statistics vs anecdotes is that stats don't help when you have personal experience - as the late John Peel observed about his fear of flying "being told how statistically unlikely you are to die in a plane crash isn't much help when the plane is going down in flames".

Ex and I separated as part of which she took DD and moved to the outskirts of a big city, taking DD out the reception class she was in at our local school. Ex wanted to put DD into a particular school, but it, and her second and third choices, were full. The form from the Local Authority asked us to identify (I am not making this up for Daily Mail Effect) if there were particular circumstances that might influence the allocation of a place - one of those specifically mentioned was being Roma.

I'm happy (even if ex isn't) with the hugely diverse school DD is at - but you might forgive me for wondering if (and why) a preference might be afforded to a Roma child, when we're struggling to get a place for our child.

I don't want to treat people differently, I don't want to be racist - as I am white and indiginous I have been openly asked by others I've met this year if I was a racist by people who have gone on to proudly tell that they are - I choose to tell such people that I don't accept their attitude. But's it's not all one thing or another, and neither are white people like me the only racists by any means.

woodhill · 31/07/2015 20:44

my Mil reckons we will be importing an army as the men are fighting age and this may be a trojan horse. who knows. I know this is conjecture but we already have people here who hate us but are quite happy to help themselves to our welfare state and have not necessarily ever contributed

I don't hate anyone but I think we need to put our own population first.

I remember Sangatte in the 90s and an amnesty was granted.

our resources are limited and our island is overcrowded especially in the SE

TwistInMySobriety · 31/07/2015 20:44

immigrants who speak eg French (from Guadaloupe, Martinique, Seychelles, Ivory Coast etc)

People from Guadeloupe and martinique are French, not French-speaking immigrants.

woodhill · 31/07/2015 20:49

dads why do Roma have priority over indigenous people. I think that is the kind of thing that does increase intolerance and irritation.

again what financial contribution do they make to the treasury or UK

FriendofBill · 31/07/2015 20:49

Romany people have the worst health outcomes of any other minority population in the UK.

Higher maternal mortality rates which are directly linked to education.

GraysAnalogy · 31/07/2015 20:52

I haven't read up on it but I suspect thats something to do with not being able to receive continuity in care with them moving around friend am I correct in saying that?

I've had patients of Romany background and been unable to follow up with them post-op, I suspect because they've moved on so unable to come to the clinic.

I do know though that in my area district nurses get in contact to see if they need any support whilst they're in the area. Which I think is a good initiative.

woodhill · 31/07/2015 20:55

ok I take your point Grays but I still the indigenous population have had a rotten deal at times with things like schooling and housing and I think this sort of initiative shouldn't be at their expense itms.

GraysAnalogy · 31/07/2015 20:57

Sorry woodhill I didn't mean to reply to you. I don't think Romany people should have priority based on their lifestyle choices, it's not very fair

Moreshabbythanchic · 31/07/2015 20:59

As we have no clue who these people are who knows whether any of them could be isis.

JassyRadlett · 31/07/2015 21:04

Dad, I get that but it cuts both ways, doesn't it? Our individual personal experiences are what they are but we can't extrapolate that to a general or national level and say 'this is the true picture', because the true picture is made up of myriad lived personal experiences, many of which are vastly different. So how do we decide what's 'right', or the most representative, without some objective basis on which to discuss it?

What I don't think is helpful, though, is to dismiss experiences like yours and many others shared on this thread (and elsewhere) because I agree that individual experience is valid and needs to be listened to and understood both to get why people feel how they feel and to move forward.

But... it's sort of a two way street, isn't it? We all have to be willing to challenge our preconceptions.

Grays, I think that's a massive issue and one (from a healthcare perspective) you'd have far more exposure to than me. I don't know what the answer is? I'm really proud of the work Britain has been doing on FGM, both here and abroad - to me that's the sort of thing the Foreign Office and DfID should be doing abroad, as well as other agencies tackling it locally.

I think I'm pretty well integrated, to the point where most people are surprised to hear I'm an immigrant. But I come from a point of privilege on that point, in that I'm a well-off white economic migrant who married a local. It's easy for me to fit in, so I can't really opine about cultural integration, but it feels to me that a real key in achieving better integration has to be language skills - because how can people understand each other's cultures, and the reasons for certain cultural practices, or even be challenged on the basis of some of those practices if they can't talk to each other?

woodhill · 31/07/2015 21:07

ok Grays Smile

FriendofBill · 31/07/2015 21:12

Being a Romany, or traveller, is not a lifestyle choice.

It is who they are.

Oh, and they are the idigenous population.

DadfromUncle · 31/07/2015 21:14

Jassy totally agree it cuts both ways - I was responding to Sigma about reasons why people don't always accept statistics as facts disproving their negative stereotypes.

By the way, it's not just FGM, think about the fact that a large part of our Eastern European intake is from Catholic countries and then reflect on attitudes to abortion and contraception - I am categorically not (as an atheist) having a go at the Catholic faith - but there's the potential for the demographic to move against abortion and contraception as we have known them.

DadfromUncle · 31/07/2015 21:18

FriendofBill Of course I agree being ethnically Roma isn't a lifestyle choice any more than my DD being half English half Irish is a lifestyle choice.