To think the British government reaction to Calais migrants is pathetic?

[ribbitTheFrog]

It's like they're just putting their heads in the sand. Meanwhile people are dying, hauliers are being threatened, holiday makers having trips ruined.

I'd do the following:

Make clear any illegal entries will be turned back to France. Make clear there are not limitless jobs, housing etc in the UK. Make clear no benefits to new migrants (if this isn't the case then change the law).

Presumably the migrants think the UK has lots of money and opportunities, otherwise they wouldn't be risking their lives to leave France (a safe country).

Lurkinghusband I think you may have misunderstood me. I am against ID cards and/or entitlment cards for the UK at all. What I am getting at is that people advocating having to show ID to get medical treatment etc, don't seem to have an answer about what happens to people who can't.

DadfromUncle

well I answered. And I am against ID cards too.

Don't expect an answer. We didn't get any 10 years ago when Blair told us we were getting them then.

Experience from ID-heavy countries suggests that people without it become second class citizens, and prey for criminals and worse.

Maybe ID-less people could live outside the city walls ?

Again - I don't see many people on here trumpeting ID cards as the cure to everything, I've only seen a couple of posters mention that not having ID cards to access services is one of the things that makes the UK more attractive to those who know that they will be living below the radar. So the question about what to do at a GP if someone can't produce an ID card is a bit off thread, isn't it?

Closer fair point about me being O/T I may have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about ID cards.

I suggested ID cards might help.

Experience from ID-heavy countries suggests that people without it become second class citizens, and prey for criminals and worse.

I'm not sure what to make of this statement, surely you don't have an ID card because you're not a citizen of said country, so how that would make you second class is a bit of a mystery to me.

As for GP surgeries, then obviously if you don't have one then you won't be seen. I'm not sure how that would be different from how things are now because you do need proof of address to register and the only place where you don't need one to be seen is only A&E. So that won't change.

Illegal immigrants are prey to exploitation now, they work for pretty much nothing and live in twenty to a bathroom if they are lucky. So what would be different there as well?

But if you have a bee in your bonnet about it you have a bee in your bonnet about it, that surely is a valid argument.

Ottilia - ID cards undoubtedly will come at a cost, making it harder for those who already are in difficult/chaotic situations and in poverty.

Australia seems to have it sorted. I agree with their way of doing things.

Lilyluna nonEEA immigrants have no recourse to public funds. Asylum seekers get support, because they are not allowed to work. So unless you lift the work ban you need to support them unless you want them starving.

So basically you're calling for laws that are already in place. It's beyond añnoying that people who complain that British rules are too soft actually don't have a clue about what those rules are in the first place. In the mean time we have people dying trying to cross the channel, as well as people in in definitive administrative detention (I.e. prison), sometimes for years.

The way Britain deals with immigration is shameful.

• ID cards undoubtedly will come at a cost, making it harder for those who already are in difficult/chaotic situations and in poverty

I am not sure how I feel about ID cards. But I do wonder which people in poverty some people on here are most worried about.

I would say we need to look after the people already living here in poverty first, those relying on food banks, in dire need and crisis before burying them under further layers of people in crisis from other countries.

I don't see how we can take more people in, with huge needs when we cannot support those already living here?

Doesn't anyone feel sorry for them?

Kent council has said today they are not coping with million pound shortfall and dramatic increase ( 602) in three months of assylum seekers under 18.

There is no money and no support for them, and what about the poor children from the UK in dire need? What about them? We already know how corrupt and degraded our children's services are.

How on earth are we supposed to improve and raise up the standard of living for children in care who have already been through hell, when instead of being able to apply more resources to them, we are trying to find funding for new people flooding in at a rate we cannot cope with.

Regarding the ID card situation, we can get some idea of how it would work by looking at the US - where a social security number is essential to access legitimate work. The fact the system doesn't deter people from hopping in from Mexico should be a hint that it's a flawed setup. And a closer look at the lives of people in the US who haven't got social security numbers would tell you that their presence breeds criminality, of some of the basest kind.

My [personal] view, is that all this talk, energy and action is an absolute waste of time until the underlying issue is addressed. And since in this thread - 214 replies - only one person has commented on it, I think we'll be a long time waiting. Anything else is a sticking plaster over the inevitable.

I also feel if we don't sort it out. Nature will. And we really wouldn't like that.

OttiliaVonBCup your comments in ID cards don't make any logical sense.

You say they would "help" without saying why.

You say that no card=no treatment at GP, but no change to A&E

You then say that you don't think it's that different as you claim to need proof of address to register.

You really aren't making sense as to why ID cards would be of any benefit - and given that they would be hugely expensive, I contend that you actually don't have a cogent argument in favour of a universal ID card scheme at all.

It's interesting that the media has really instilled in people this idea that the UK take disproportionately more immigrants than any other country in Europe. It's been bandied about as fact a lot on this thread.

Lurkinghusband SSNs in the USA might be regarded as closer to National Insurance numbers here, rather than a de facto ID. The USA has decided against a national ID card several times. Driving licences are commonly used as ID there - these are issued by each State so there are some variations in their form. Some States even issue a "Non driving" licence for people who can't drive but need ID.

I agree with you about the underlying issues - discussion about ID systems is utterly pointless and irrelevant as it won't do anything to stem the flow of people at Calais. Not a single one of them has been disrupted by the compulsory ID cards in France, any more than they would be if they were here. As usual, law-abiding people would be affected whilst it's business as usual for everyone else.

milliemanzi It's not a simple equation though; our population density is higher than quite a lot of Europe - and on top of that we're very urbanised and very densely populated down at one corner!

Some common myths mashable.com/2015/07/29/migrants-calais-uk-myths/

SSNs in the USA might be regarded as closer to National Insurance numbers here, rather than a de facto ID.

True, but the point was that there are forests of federal law obliging honest employers to check an employees SSN before hiring them. With draconian penalties for both employer and employee if they don't.

Exactly the same system in the UK, by the way. Although (I may be wrong) the UK system is more severe.

And in the same way the system is of questionable efficacy in the US, it's pretty pants here too.

So given all that, it's hard to see what adding ID cards to the mix would bring, apart from a job for life for a civil servant somewhere.

Bear in mind, all this has done is increased the onus on the innocent. Why do you need to show your employer and your landlord your passport ? And there is anecdotal evidence that some people (UK citizens) without passports have experienced problems with regulations designed to prevent illegal immigrants settling into society.

We need to work on the long-term solution now. But I'm not holding my breath, no one seems to like it.

Yes I realise that it's not simple but it does seem that many people think we take far more migrants than any other country, the phrase "our tiny island" has been said many times and whilst yes we are a small country we are also one of the richest.

very densely populated down at one corner!

Why is that ? Presumably some accident of geography, or climate that makes the other 4/5ths uninhabitable ? If not, it's a man made problem, and can be solved (or not) by man. Given how much so many have invested in London property, I can't see that being solved anytime soon.

Our performance on taking asylum seekers can't be considered in isolation though. We are, unarguably, subject to what by any measurement is a very large amount of people coming from the EU to work here. Leaving aside the economics, there are always going to be issues of space and service provision on such a small island where so much of the employment is huddled in one corner.

Lurkinghusband - I think you and I are on the same page about 99% of this.

Lilyluna - are you seriously saying that the UK should play no part in offering refuge to any people who have been displaced at all? Even if you don't take into account the role the UK played in the reasons why those people had to flee, it seems a rather isolationist and inhumane approach to take, leaving the rest of the international community to deal with it simply because the UK happens to be an island nation. Shameful. Is that what British values is about? Nimbyism?