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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Use of the words abusive and controlling on MN

475 replies

SrAssumpta · 26/07/2015 12:25

Recently there seems to be a surge in the dramatically unnecessary use of words like abusive and controlling on here and I really think I've become desensitized to it so I would imagine that's how real victims of abuse or people with genuinely controlling partners would feel too if they came on talking about their relationship, does that make sense?

A woman got told the other day she sounded controlling for making a meal plan ffs, I mean seriously? These words get thrown around now it's going to either lead to everyone thinking they're in abusive relationships or in fact controlling and the people who genuinely need to understand that their relationship isn't normal won't be able to see it because suddenly everybody is abusive or controlling.

OP posts:
PushingThru · 30/07/2015 22:10

..."now it's going to either lead to everyone thinking they're in abusive relationships or in fact controlling and the people who genuinely need to understand that their relationship isn't normal won't be able to see it because suddenly everybody is abusive or controlling."

No, it isn't. What's even more prevalent on Mumsnet is the idea that its users are passive receptacles for the views expressed. People generally read advice and experiences and assimilate this with their own views and experiences and views sourced elsewhere. This really does insult people's intelligence.

bumbleymummy · 30/07/2015 22:13

"What makes people here (who seem so shy of defining abuse) qualified to know whether someone is posting about 'a minor issue'?"

Examples have been given but you've avoided talking about them because you don't want to make this a TAAT. No one is talking about situations of actual abuse. Unless you are one of the people who thinks buying cake at the end of a first date is abusive?

mathanxiety · 30/07/2015 22:30

Examples of what?
What is 'actual abuse', Bumbley?

Nobody has attempted to define 'actual' abuse or 'real' abuse. I was not asking a trick question when I asked for definitions. I would genuinely like to know what people here think abuse is.

After a definition is provided, I would like to know how they think it all starts, whether they think women are such fools that they continue to date and get engaged to and marry and buy houses and have children with men who slap them in the face on a first date..

PushingThru, I agree with you.

bumbleymummy · 30/07/2015 22:35

Examples of a 'minor issue' math. One of them was buying a piece of cake at the end of a first date. Can you clarify whether you think that is abusive?

"Nobody has attempted to define 'actual' abuse or 'real' abuse."

Yes, because no one is talking about actual and real abuse. The point of the thread was the misuse of the terms 'abuse' and 'controlling' in situations where abuse and control are not taking place.

Maybe you should start another thread about the topics that you want to discuss?

bumbleymummy · 30/07/2015 22:35

Anyway, I can see you're just doing that 'thing' that you do so I'll leave you to it.

SmillasSenseOfSnow · 30/07/2015 22:53

Yes, because no one is talking about actual and real abuse. The point of the thread was the misuse of the terms 'abuse' and 'controlling' in situations where abuse and control are not taking place.

Are you seriously suggesting it's possible to define what isn't abuse without first defining what is?

SrAssumpta · 30/07/2015 22:56

Yes, because no one is talking about actual and real abuse.

This times a thousand.

Goodnight all Smile

OP posts:
LazyLohan · 30/07/2015 23:16

Bloody hell. I think the posters on the last few pages who were trying to argue that the OP WIBU have done a pretty good job of showing exactly how right the OP was.

And I'm pretty damn pissed off that I was reported and told off by HQ for posting something Lweji was bloody demanding^ I posted.

mathanxiety · 31/07/2015 04:42

Thanks Bumbley but what I asked for was a definition of abuse.

Not an example that is being bandied about as emblematic of all that is wrong with the Relationships board.

'Yes, because no one is talking about actual and real abuse. The point of the thread was the misuse of the terms 'abuse' and 'controlling' in situations where abuse and control are not taking place.'

'Use of the words abusive and controlling on MN' is the actual term of the OP's title.
First paragraph of the OP:
'Recently there seems to be a surge in the dramatically unnecessary use of words like abusive and controlling on here and I really think I've become desensitized to it so I would imagine that's how real victims of abuse or people with genuinely controlling partners would feel too if they came on talking about their relationship, does that make sense?'
(Note liberal use of the imagination.)

So I'll try again.
What is 'real abuse' or 'actual abuse'?
What does 'controlling' mean?
What are 'real victims of abuse'?
What is a 'genuinely controlling partner'

And I will ask you the question that Bruffin directed at me:
"What makes you qualified to know whether something is a "minor issue or not"
In other words:
"What makes you qualified to know abuse and control are not taking place?"

mathanxiety · 31/07/2015 04:49

'Yes, because no one is talking about actual and real abuse.'

What is your definition of 'real' and 'actual abuse' SrAssumpta?

BigDogsCock · 31/07/2015 05:37

Way to almost single handedly derail a perfectly good thread with lots of reasoned debate and turn it in to possibly the most tedious thing ever viewed by the human eye. I've almost lost the will to live after reading yesterday's offerings.

Let it go, deary.

mathanxiety · 31/07/2015 06:00

Nobody is forcing you to read any of it.

mathanxiety · 31/07/2015 06:01

And actually plenty of posters have posted multiple responses directed at me without any evidence of reading a single word I posted.

mathanxiety · 31/07/2015 06:02

I am guessing you have nothing to offer on the subject of definitions of abuse?

BigDogsCock · 31/07/2015 06:13

I'm too busy eating this cake, sorry.

Spartans · 31/07/2015 06:27

Math Iwon't be responding to you. It's my opinion that you are attempting to start a bun fight in hope of getting the thread deleted. I get that you are offended by this thread, but have actually proved the point.

Fwiw there is no one defininition of abuse. Ranging from actions that take away someone's rights to repeated violence. But buying cake and not doing the dishes one night.....isn't abuse. Again......you keep trying to derail the thread, but we are talking about threads where is clearly not abuse.

StarlingMurmuration · 31/07/2015 08:04

Math, you quote me out of context. I was very clearly referring to my own relationship with my DP, and not anyone else's relationship, when I said "it's just niggling things". Your sophistry is tiring me out.

StarlingMurmuration · 31/07/2015 08:25

Spartans, I've screencapped the best bits anyway, in case it gets deleted and people later claim they have a better memory of the thread than anyone else.

bumbleymummy · 31/07/2015 08:55

Math, what you asked me was 'examples of what?' When I told you that examples had been given. Examples of what we're actually discussing on the thread which is the over/misuse of the words 'abusive' and 'controlling' rather than actual abuse and control. If you want to discuss that you should start your own thread.

"It's my opinion that you are attempting to start a bun fight in hope of getting the thread deleted. I get that you are offended by this thread, but have actually proved the point. "

I think you're right Spartans.

"I'm too busy eating this cake, sorry."

Grin
AskBasil · 31/07/2015 12:22

I can see what Mathaanxiety is arguing. The problem with abuse, is that it does start small and that it is often a series of quite minor incidents which by themselves are trivial, but which if you put them all together, add up to quite a significant picture of abuse. So yeah, the bloke hasn't done the dishes that one time when he said he would, probably isn't abuse. But if it was part of a pattern of behaviour, then of course it has to be considered as part of that context. That's why sometimes, posters ask for more info - to try and gauge if this is just someone letting off steam (nothing wrong with that), or whether this incident is just the tip of the iceberg.

I do agree that telling women to LTB right now irrespective of how dangerous that would be, is very unhelpful; people need to be ready to leave and exit strategies need to be very carefully planned.

I don't disagree that abuse shouldn't be seen in every single row couples ever have, but I tend to agree that every other message most women get, is the minimisation and excuses message - all men are like this, everyone experiences this, it's no big deal, unless he hits you it's not a problem, etc. etc. Mumsnet is brilliant for not promoting the acceptance of shitty behaviour in relationships and naming abuse for what it is. It's far more common to see abusive behaviour not recognised as abuse, than for non-abusive off-days to be wrongly characterised as abuse. I can understand that it's frustrating if you see the latter often, but I really don't think it's as big a problem as the former, on Mumsnet and certainly not in the RW.

AskBasil · 31/07/2015 12:29

Oh and as for the outraged response to Lweji's point that the teenager throwing the vase can be understood as DV, well throwing things to intimidate, control, or "make a point" is one of the behaviours recognised by all reputable organisations working with victims or perpetrators, as DV. Are posters aware that DV can be committed by teenagers, it's a tiny percentage, but the phenomenon of a 6ft 16 year old regularly beating up his mum, is not completely unknown and I'm surprised to see posters scoffing at the idea that teenagers can commit DV against their parent(s). A lot of abuse starts with things like throwing, I didn't see that thread, but again, as part of a pattern of abusive behaviour it most certainly is DV and even as a one-off, it is certainly very disturbing behaviour because if it's not nipped in the bud it can lead to much worse violence. I can't imagine why anyone would want to pretend that an incident like that is not extremely serious and needs to be treated as such.

DioneTheDiabolist · 31/07/2015 12:38

Math, what is your definition of abuse?

Spartans · 31/07/2015 13:41

yeah, the bloke hasn't done the dishes that one time when he said he would, probably isn't abuse

I disagree a man or woman not doing the dishes one time is not abuse. We also are not saying people shouldn't ask for firth info. We are saying people shouldn't be telling people they or their partners are abusers because they didn't do the dishes on occasion.

The outrage about Lewji wasn't because she said the police should be called. It was because she kept saying she remembered the thread better than anyone, and that was never said. Except it turned out it was her that was saying it. She called posters liars for saying things happened on that thread that didn't. Then it turn out they did.

There was no pattern of abuse there.

And yes I do know teenagers can commit DV etc.

ApplePaltrow · 31/07/2015 13:54

Math

You seem very offended by my posts.

[ApplePaltrow]
"But the worst for me is the poor analogizing (especially on the relationships board)
OP: Last night I came in late and my husband hadn't done the dishes. AIBU to be angry?
Poster: Not at all. I know exactly how you feel. My ex-husband didn't do the dishes once. Later that night he shot my best friend and burned the house down. Call Women's Aid. LTB!"

How jolly it is to make fun of
(a) People who post their problems on Relationships.
It is a well known fact that most people who post there are not bothered by anything more than husbands not doing the dishes -- so well known that ApplePaltrow can make a little joke about the usual scenario.

Nope, I think you may have missed the subtlety of that joke. I related a typical negative scenario: an unequal distribution of domestic tasks in a relationship. Most data suggests that most relationships are unequal on this front. I would expect most women on every board to be able to state something like this.

The husband is 95% likely to be in the wrong here. But he can be in the wrong without being abusive. But the relationship is immediately cast as an abusive one. That makes the way forward very clear. Once so categorized, there can be no attempt to make the relationship equal, no attempt to fix the relationship. Even attempting to ask for more information is aggressively shouted down as victim-blaming or being a "cool wife". Everyone immediately (aggressively) moves to LTB.

It's like people don't feel like inequality or being unhappy is enough of a reason to leave. Only abuse is enough. So everything must be coded as abuse in order to give people a reason to leave. Like the cake-abuse guy. The poster probably wanted to make the OP feel better but the only bad = abuse... so he must have been abusive.

Do you really think that this is giving women the tools they need for the rest of their lives? It's like the difference between fear and anxiety. Now they are afraid of everyone and everything, they can no longer rely on their fear instinct to guide them. They are probably more vulnerable to future abuse than if they received slightly more nuanced advice.

and (b) People who post there to give advice, and posters who relate to their own experiences.
Yeah, because it is well known that people who give advice on Relationships are stupid and irrational hmm.

Yes, I was definitely clearly making fun of them! Everyone single person on mumsnet gives advice and relates their own experiences; I don't think you should be mollycoddled for it. Hell, posters asking for advice in terrible situations are torn apart half the time if they use the wrong word or happen to read unsympathetically. Even self identified victims of abuse get serious nastiness if they refuse to take people's prior advice. I think people take themselves way too seriously if they think that they should be lauded and beyond criticism just because they take the time to post on the relationships board. Scary that you think otherwise.

Let's be honest, most of the posters there lack humility and any doubt in their diagnoses whatsoever but they don't have the skills or experience to do anything other than diagnose abuse. They don't know how to fix relationships. They don't know how to build self esteem or boundaries. They're not trained therapists. And when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

AskBasil · 31/07/2015 14:32

“We are saying people shouldn't be telling people they or their partners are abusers because they didn't do the dishes on occasion”

Really? I have never come across a post which tells anyone that they or their partners are abusers for such a trivial thing, without any context, in well over a decade of being a member of MN.

"dying laughing. if people will cry domestic violence against their own children for something like that, what chance does a DH have?

You may be aware that teenagers can commit DV, Spartan, but that post makes it crystal clear that some people think "crying domestic violence against their own children (their emphasis) is beyond the pale. There's a huge implication there, that DV cannot be committed by your own children and that throwing a glass vase cannot be defined as an act of domestic violence. Both of those assumptions are wrong and it's good that lots of mumsnetters are willing to point that out.