'The only way we've sorted a sleep prob in this house is controlled crying' - fuck off!!

[Smataya]

I text friend who has two under two how hard it's been of late with Ds 11 months just not sleeping. I've explained before he is just not a sleeper and likes to be close at night, wakes a lot for milk and that I'm doing attachment parenting. She knows how against cc I am and I will not ever leave my child to cry. Ds has not slept for longer than an hour since he was 5 months which is starting to take its toll, but as I say, he's just not a sleeper and it's tough.

Why the f is she doing this pa bull shit about cc over text?? She's been like eerr have you tried sleep training to me before and I just don't want to hear it. Her two sleep through and I just find it smug- she's got lucky and now claiming its all down to cc. Am I justified in texting back to say ftfo to the far side of fuck?!?!

A referral to a paed for what? For an 11 month old baby who is waking frequently in the night? Seriously?

Knew from the opening post this would be a massive bun fight!

I can only offer my tuppence worth and I am of the school of thought that doesn't understand why we are so keen to label parenting styles? Surely you just do what you need to do and what works best for you?

I formula fed DC1, he slept through from 10 weeks and was basically an angel of a baby. He hated his sling and although we co-slept it wasn't until he was older.

DC2 on the other hand has been BF from the moment she arrived, wont take expressed milk, hasn't spent a single night in her crib, is like a limpet with me and doesn't sleep through (even at 6 months). We co-sleep, I use a sling and I have not left her for longer than 2 hours apart from a trip to A&E with DC1 when she was a few months old

Every child is different and what works for one will not work for another. I know which one of my babies was "easier" but for me but it's not about what is easier, it is about what a baby needs / wants.

OP, I do think you first post came across as aggressive BUT I understand why. I would however say that if at 11 months your child only sleeps for ONE HOUR at a time, then you need to be thinking of other options - for your own health and sanity!

Total and hamish

Great posts

Oh christ, I knew some people like Lennon when DS1 was tiny. There's no point engaging - they can only tell the difference between 'APing' a child and 'Gina Fording the shit out of it' and have no comprehension of all the different ways of doing things that don't fit neatly into one of those labels.

I co-slept, BF on demand, used slings full time, never left them to cry etc etc. I also got blindingly lucky with one incredibly good sleeper and one who was on the better side of average in terms of sleep. I have no idea if co-sleeping etc had any impact on them sleeping through, or whether it just allowed me to maximise sleep by not having to get up for their minimal night wakings. If they hadn't been good sleepers, I may well have tried something different.

There are a lot of people who are evangelical about AP, but, like me, never had to put their beliefs to the test with poor sleepers. They therefore don't have to bother learning the difference between CC and CIO, or understand that certain practices which wouldn't be good for a newborn might be perfectly fine for a much older baby. A lot of this stuff that's churned out about damaging a child is about the effect on very young babies. There are all sorts of things you can expect an older child to begin to learn, which would be completely inappropriate for a 3 day old. Babies change and grow and you have to start introducing different ways of doing things at the appropriate stages. Most people would try to avoid putting a 1 week old in a nursery. A lot of people would be completely horrified at the idea of it. But get to 6 months, and most people would be entirely comfortable with it.

Things change, and there's no point spouting the same theory for every stage of development. Generally, there's little point spouting theory at all. particularly when it's not actually framed in a way that is likely to make anyone think seriously or change their views, but rather with the intent to attack.

I think the problem is that new parents, especially those with not that much previous exposure to babies (which I think is true for many of us now that families tend to be smaller and more nuclear) do choose parenting styles as advocated by various gurus.

In the past I suspect we'd have been much more likely just to parent much as our mothers/aunts/cousins/big sisters etc did, and most probably with those other women to hand to provide support. Plus we might well have helped them with their babies and so already had some experience and therefore confidence in our own instincts.

Instead we look online and to books which tell us about 'one true ways'. It's then really hard to find your own way as you think that you must do what you have been told, even if it quite obviously isn't working. And that's especially true if the alternative approaches have been demonised.

And the point is that it's not working for the OP. She's clearly pretty much at breaking point, is turning to people she must know won't be terribly supportive of her choices and deflecting her anger on to them. All very understandable, sleep deprivation is just awful. I remember when my second couldn't get to sleep in the evening how incredibly annoying it was to be told that if I just co-slept all would be fixed (probably by an AP parent although the term wasn't widely used back then). For me co-sleeping was a nightmare with no sleep for me and milk everywhere. Plus dd didn't actually go to sleep on me. She insisted on being walked/rocked, possibly becasue she had some reflux.

Same experience as you, Four; it's been an easier ride for me doing what could be loosely termed AP (though I didn't know what it meant and never decided to 'do' it) than it would have been to try and implement a routine and so on.

I don't know enough about AP to comment on how closely I have followed it. I suspect not entirely closely, I am fairly inadequate as a mother in many respects

I don't believe in a top down approach with children though - not babies at any rate. They have a very strong will, I think often for a good reason and it deserves to be considered.

You do what you feel is right, if one method does not work, try another. cC is not about leaving a baby to cry it out, it is done for 1 year or over, not yiung babies, and they cry for a couple of mins, you go in sooth them, not pick them up, leave just repeat until they sleep. It's about teaching them to self sooth, by tgat age, unless they are not ill, teething etc, they really should do. I valued my sleep, I needed it to function daily.

Miaow I think by skipping the bunfight you've also missed several of OPs posts where she's changed her mind somewhat. She also admitted she was probably confused about CC and CIO as she thought they were the same.

She really just needs support and helpful suggestions now.

Miaow

Bit harsh, she's just a mum who needs a bit of support

Please read the full thread, people

Blundering in with nasty digs and unsupportive posts makes you look a bit twatty

Cheers

Miaow, quite harsh. Would you speak to someone like that in real life? Because this may be anonymous but it is actually real life.

I think I put that badly about Peaches Geldof. I think that what I meant is that some advocates of AP seem to see it as a magic pill will solves all problems and overrides any other issues. Personally I don't agree with that and think that a depressed, exhausted, miserable or resentful parent can do harm that no amount of going through the motions of AP because you've been told it's what you 'should' do can rectify.

Peaches Geldof is a very extreme example, but no matter how much she did AP it didn't change the fact that wouldn't make up for having an addict parent. Although she's possibly a bad example, because I don't think even the most ardent AP advocate would suggest co-sleeping on methadone and I don't think leaving your baby down the hall shut in on their own in a cot while you take heroin elsewhere is in any AP manuals.

OP I wouldn't have said her text was smug at all, just suggesting the only advice she could but only you know your friend so if you do think she was being smug then perhaps she's not the best person to be talking to about this or asking for support? Perhaps you need to speak to your health visitor as well- if she helps, I know some are great, some shit.

Since you will still get people not reading the thread, maybe it's better to start a new one under parenting or something? Just lay out the situation, what you've tried an what you don't want to do and ask for help and advice? Your original AIBU really that's you getting angry and ranting when actually what you need is support- not to be told YABU but it took a lot of posts to get to that point and for people to realise and you to realise so perhaps repost asking for advice and leaving out the friend entirely?

Lazy I can see that you have a point to make about AP but it is nothing short of hideous to use the example of a sadly deceased young mother to illustrate it.

Please could we just not talk about her in this context? It's really distasteful if nothing else.

You can surely find a better way to make your point.

She claimed she did attachment parenting and publicly criticised other parenting methods. I do think it's relevant because it's just an example of women lecturing each other on how superior their parenting method is and rubbishing what other women do, when the reality is actually somewhat different.

I imagine quite a few mothers (much like the OP) felt rather inferior with Peaches public pronouncements of how AP was the superior way when they were struggling. Little did they know...

It is an extreme case, but so often we don't find out what goes on behind the closed doors of people who make these sweeping statements about the parenting of others..

Please? Can you just leave it? Her life and her problems are none of our business. Not now, at any rate. A bit of respect.

What peaches Geldoff said or didnt say when she was alive really shouldnt be up for debate

Um, Sophie, considering you do exactly the same thing of pronouncing that AP is the superior and correct way of parenting and you've been critical of other people's parenting styles, I suspect that your outrage is less about respect, and more driven by the fact that you don't like it pointing out that people like you who criticise other parents and bang on about how great their own style is are often talking bollocks. Frequently to cover up their own deep seated feelings of inadequacy.

Also, I'm not sure why it's wrong for me to criticise someone who dumps their baby in solitary and fucks off to mainline skag. But apparently it's okay for AP advocates to suggest that people who do cc are abusive and neglectful. Bit hypocritical no?

And if her life and her problems are none of our business, how come it's your business to judge mothers who do cc? But not take heroin. Apparently that's fine.

If you want to discuss peaches geldofs life in relation to ap you should start your own thread about it. I agree it's very distasteful to use her as an example in this thread. And I haven't slated any form of parenting so I feel this way simpley because it's insensitive to bring her up here.

There have been plenty of posters slating ap, and specifically the ops parenting as abusive and stupid also. It's not just posters claiming cc is abusive, it's both 'sides'. But either way, peaches geldof should be left out of this discussion. I'm sure there have been equally fanatical gf parents out their who have bought into the illusion that a perfectly run home and perfect children will make life worth living, who have also abused drugs and whose lives have ended in equal self destruction- they also don't have any place in this discussion.

Op, again, I think you should ask for this thread to be taken down and trot off to natural mamas. You can't be getting what you need from this and it very much sounds like you need support to help you find what you feel is best in your situation.

Taken down? You can't get a thread removed because you don't like the direction it's headed. I think OP is long gone anyway. The thread had veered off to a general debate rather than her particular issue anyway so good for her.

Lazy, you're misrepresenting me quite bizarrely in that post but by all means carry on assuming what you will without properly reading or attempting to understand my posts.

I don't care what you think; I'm not being disingenuous, and my reasons for wanting you to stop this foul line of argument are as stated.

I'm going to leave you to it.