To think there is no point to relationships/marriage

[FlowersAndShit]

because most men leave, cheat or are abusive? I don't know anyone in a happy relationship/marriage. All marriages, especially first marriages seem to end in divorce. I just think, what's the point?

I feel sorry for you OP because it's clear that your life experiences have told me men are shits.

Mine haven't, had lots of nice male friends at school, hung around in a big mixed group and are friends with them still after 30 odd years. Most of my friends are with someone in a decent relationship, I would say 50% actively happy and the rest prefer to build a family with someone than be alone, and some don't have children- those couples in my circle are actually really happy with their partners, all that alone time!

That's not to say I haven't seen some of the things you talk about, my father is unfaithful a lot, but I tend to see him as flawed rather than as a bad person (in other words a person to avoid, not to condemn), the odd thing has come up over the years.

The good news, if you can call it that, is that if you don't like the men you meet, you don't have to be with them. I didn't have many long-term relationships til my early thirties and I sometimes wonder if I hadn't met my husband, if I'd have met anyone else at all. I was pretty happy single, still had the odd fun encounter with nice men.

I think the advice of patterkiller is spot on, if you spot anything dodgy, too keen, signs of abuse within first couple of dates, I would be out of there. I would be out of there at any time point actually. So- the trouble is if you don't have that good radar you can end up staying with not nice people who then confirm your view all men are bastards.

I am not going to try to convince you to find a nice man if you don't want one, but if you don't believe they exist, that's really about you and not them.

Oh god my friend got drunk last night and was banging on about this. Her dad is getting divorced for the FOURTH time. Her mum was no 3. Each wife was about half the age of the last one and there only a few years between no4 and herself which I think is fucking horrible.

I was trying to say it's not marriage that's the problem, it's people jumping into bed with unsuitable partners!

patter has nailed it. If all the men in your life are abusers then your perceptions and standards of what's acceptable are bound to be off kilter.

Look at the freedom programme.
What do you look for in a man? If you disdain quiet men in suits who have a desk job and think that a real man will be propping up a bar making his Neanderthal mates laugh, then you're fishing in the wrong pond.
Disclaimer I know that quiet men in suits abuse too, but I also know that there's a certain bad boy image (gobby, can look after himself in a fight, plays the system, has kids already) that some women find attractive and if that's all that's on your shopping list the odds are against you.

have been married for 26 years. My parents were married for nearly 60, my brothers for 42 years and the other one for 39 years. my inlaws have been married for 62 years, although if they had been in a different decade I am sure they might have divorced! ( loads of reasons they stayed together and not for the good!) A lot of people I know that married at the end of the 80s, however, are now divorced. My Dh's friends are all still together , its a mixed bag
. not going to say its been easy, my own Dh is fairly selfish and I;m sure lots of other women may well have left him by now. Im not saying im wonderful, but I did learn how to just get through the bad bits and we did work together. not always been a bed of roses of course!
I suppose its just finding the right person - it seems more of a minefield that it ever was 26 years ago, not sure why, maybe men are just more self centred than they ever were, people don't put up with things like I did. I have a friend who married and divorced very young, had numerous partners and there is / has been something wrong with all of them - its never her! I really don't know - but I am sure there is someone out there for you. I am sorry you know nobody in a happy relationship.

FlowersAndShit - are you ok? Has anything happened to prompt this post today or is this just a general reflection? I hope you're ok.

I am in a LTR (not married) and have been for years. It is my third relationship. It is the only one I've been in that is what I always hoped a relationship would be. He is kind, considerate, always doing thoughtful little things for me and trying to make my life easier, while also making me laugh, having fun with me, encouraging me to grow as an individual, and still turning me on in the bedroom. It is possible to have a wonderful relationship.

I was fortunate to grow up in a happy family where my parents also adored each other and whose relationship was characterised by affection and respect. I think that goes a long way towards drawing the line of acceptable and unacceptable behaviour in relationships. I ended my first two relationships because I knew what relationships could be and recognised that those weren't meeting that standard (the second was abusive).

I also think knowing yourself is a vital part of it. I spent many years single after the end of my second relationship, putting myself (and my DC) first. During that time I retrained for a better career, developed new friendships and hobbies and basically built the life I wanted. I learned a huge amount about myself in the process, which in turn helped me establish much more clearly in my own mind what I did and didn't want from a relationship - although I also came to realise that actually I'd rather be on my own than in a relationship that didn't live up to expectations. Being single can be great!

When I met DP, we took it very slow and I made it very clear early on what I would and would not accept. He said he loved the fact I was so direct and he knew where he stood. We have both learned the art of airing any disagreements/issues before they become flashpoints and always listening to each other's POVs and respecting it even if we disagree with it. We haven't yet found something we can't come to an agreement on.

To some extent, I think you have a point. Given that so many marriages fail and of the ones that go the distance, there's a good chance that a lot of them are unhappy for various reasons, I think as a society we should accept that the traditional nuclear family is not the fantastic model it's always been held up to be. It has always benefitted men far more than women, and it's no surprise to me that study after study has shown that married men but single women are the ones with the higher happiness ratings. To me that reflects inequality. I think in an equal, happy, respectful relationship, the married women's happiness would be the same as the single woman's.

The point of this is that there are good men out there - a lot of them in fact. Unfortunately, recognising them is a skill that requires learning and you also need to have a lot of self-awareness about your own strengths/weaknesses.

I think that if you have a dim view of a relationship, or are in an unhappy one, people aren't likely to tell you how fabulous their relationships might be, which can then reinforce the view that all relationships are bad.

I know very few people who have divorced - in my extended friend group only one couple. Although quite a few have in dh's family & that was no great surprise since they are mostly deeply dysfunctional.

Unfortunately, recognising them is a skill that requires learning and you also need to have a lot of self-awareness about your own strengths/weaknesses.

^This is so true.

My parents have been happily married for 44 years, my in-laws for nearly 50, dh & I have just had our 17th anniversary, my brother & his wife have been married for 19 years. I don't think we are that unusual.

I don't think ALL men are arses, probably not even the majority but I have seen and experienced more than my share of nasty men during my time, mainly in the male dominated environments I was employed in for many years. I think the good ones are hard to find and probably get snapped up pretty quick and frankly I can't be bothered to keep looking.

I do think as well that some mnetters probably have quite limited experience of these kinds of men, perhaps they got lucky early or were lucky enough to have strong boundaries from the outset. Problem is if you have a bad relationship experience early on it's entirely understandable how that could colour your perception and change you in such a way that you might keep repeating the cycle.

I have to say also that I have wide and varied friendship group and I probably know one truly happy couple and imo it's because the wife is the most gentle, kindest and unassuming person you could ever meet. She'd be impossible to get angry with I imagine. The rest include middle aged men who left long marriages, couples where one controls everything and the other just goes along with it; men and women, others who seem to actually hate each other. Without fail though, they all consider themselves to have achieved a "successful" marriage/partnership.

My friend joined a dating site for married people looking for affairs, she was absolutely inundated. Men out number women significantly on there. Two thirds men to one third women and the men are very active. All married all looking for affairs, literally 1000's of them.

I think maybe I have just seen too much. Have very little faith.

My first marriage ended in divorce, and most of my friends who also married young ended up divorced within a few years. However, I think you learn from the first marriage. You learn what sort of person you don't want to spend your life with, what's important in a marriage, what personality traits you can/can't live with etc. It's almost like a trial run, a chance to make mistakes.
In between my first and 2nd marriage I lived alone for a couple of years, worked on my career, experienced what it's like to be independent and how to manage my own life. So I was a lot more confident by the time I was ready to marry again, I knew my own mind and I'd let go of the hurt and anger that I felt towards my first H.

I have no regrets about my 2nd marriage. I chose a man I love deeply, someone I'd known for a long time and had deep admiration and respect for as well as strong physical attraction. We are best friends as well as husband and wife. We communicate well and understand each other. We're kind and patient with each other, and both make an effort to be supportive and tolerant when the other's having difficulties. Being in this sort of relationship has transformed my life for the better.

I think too many people make decisions about marriage when they don't really know each other well. It takes years to get to know someone's character, to be able to love them unconditionally and completely accept them. I think many people rely too much on romance and the idea of a soulmate, rush into marriage or commitment, then have a shock when they discover sides to their partner they didn't know existed.

But IMO it's a shame to assume all relationships break down. I know many couples who've been happily married for decades.