...to ask the sleep deprived, how the F**K do you do it?! Seriously.

[DangerGrouse]

This is not a rhetorical question. I want answers and I want your stories. I am completely in awe/confused about people who function with sleep deprivation it utterly baffles me.
I have a two year old daughter who has always slept well and I am acutely aware of how lucky I am and I take no credit for this and I am not smug.
The night before last she had some random "hurty ear" and spent most of the night awake crying and wanting cuddles. So of course I spent the night cuddling her and dosing her up to the eyeballs with calpol and ibuprofen etc. Normal mumstuff. The night was of course awful - I was delirious and started hallucinating at one point I was so tired. Yesterday was consequently terrible and I felt physically sick and was grumpy from tiredness. From one bad night. In pretty much two years. And all I could think of was "HOW THE FUCK DO THEY DO IT?!" As in permanently sleep deprived mothers of non sleeping or ill children?
Seriously? How do you cope? What gets you through? Do you just accept it and deal with it, have a nervous breakdown or just live in permanent hate of your days and nights?
From one totally in awe mother to all of you sleep deprived warrior goddesses, I bow down and salute you.

Stories like this make me sure I will never have another child.

DS sleeps fairly well now but we did let him CIO at 13m (well, DH did while I was on a hen weekend) and I can honestly say that even though I didn't have the strength to do it myself and was sure he was crying because he needed me, it was 100% worth it.

I used to think Just do anything for an easy life and bring DS into our bed, get him a bottle etc, but I was encouraging the habit of waking on a regular basis. I can see that now, at the time I wanted whatever sleep I could lay me hands on at the time.

I've had 3 years of shit sleep so far, with no end in sight. At this time of day I feel pretty alright considering I've barely had any sleep since about 4am, and was woken at least three times in the 5 or so hours I got before that. Felt crap for a while after I got up, and will no doubt be fit for nothing after 9pm, but otherwise I get through the day as I get through all the others.

Why haven't I done CC/CIO? (I don't really believe there's a difference between the two, crying is crying imo.) DP has always been keen, but he probably wouldn't be the one implementing it, just like it was my decision when to night wean because I was the one doing the night feeds, so we haven't done it.

• because I don't believe in deliberately leaving my child to cry. Is answer enough. As far as I'm concerned, you might as well ask me whether I hadn't considered slipping them a bit of whisky to get them off to sleep. Yes, it might work (!), but I'm not going to do it

• because unlike PPs, I haven't come close to being a danger to myself or others, so utterly shit as it is, there's no safety issue which to me is the only justification for CC/CIO.

• because DD1 (the worse sleeper) never showed any sign of being sleep deprived during the day, and even now rarely gets more than 10 hours of sleep. So given she has always been fine on the sleep she got/gets, and the problem of lack of sleep is all mine, I don't think it's right to solve that problem by causing her distress.

• because the thought of making night-time worse, even if it only took a few days and even for a promised improvement (which isn't guaranteed and might not last), is unbearable when you are that tired. I only had the energy to night-wean DD1 after a holiday, I simply couldn't face it before that. It was grim, for both of us, and even if you guaranteed DD2 would sleep through if I night-weaned her tomorrow, I wouldn't do it because I couldn't face it now either.

As others have said, the other effect of sleep deprivation is rage... DP stays up late to watch DVDs and I get the rage when I see whichever box set it is currently Buffy lying out in the morning, because I want to be able to choose to stay up late and watch grown-up TV of my choosing, rather than tumbling into bed no more than an hour after finishing household chores. We take it in turns to do the early mornings, but I'm the one up overnight because of breastfeeding. I would ask him to do all the early mornings, but he's in such a foul mood when he gets up early because he can't tear himself away from his DVDs even when he knows he's getting up that I don't actually want to put the DDs through that.

God that was long . As I say, you get the rage...

DD used to wake every 20mins to bf for months. It got to the point I couldn't remember what I was doing/had done/eaten/which day it was/who I had said what to etc. I was a shell. I pushed myself to go out and do loads of stuff which I only now really remember because I took photos! I am glad I did though as the idea of me couped up at home going silently crazy is a horrible alternative. I am just glad I didn't drive then; the idea of driving in anything near the state I was in is terrifying! I can only imagine the temptation if you are zombified to 'just nip to get XZY' and it gives me the fear.
For a long time I thought I only needed 5-6 hours but now dd is sleeping in with me (rather than up 2/3 times disturbing both of us) I get 7 roughly per night and am actually starting to remember things I didn't even know I had forgotten! Sleep is a very powerful thing.

Trobadora YY to the rage. I feel like I've only really stopped ranting about odd things in the last year! (dd is nearly 4)

I'm struggling at the moment actually, and it makes me unhappy because I've got no energy. I should be doing stuff with my eldest two but even going for walks is a struggle. Dh works late and is also suffering from chronic migraine and crohns (?) disease so until that's all sorted we're muddling through as best we can. Dh sleeps downstairs so he doesn't wake ds 16 months or I, and we try an split the time that's left in the mornings between ds waking at 5/6am and us 'having' to be up. I can't remember the last time I had a full nights sleep and I'm at the point now where I just want to cry fairly often I'm mainlining coffee and sugar and consequently feeling further shit.

I also think a lot of this needs to be put on the dads to help - obviously not with bfing, but early mornings and toddler bed times certainly if there is another baby keeping mum up all night. They have no idea what tired is half of the time it seems remembers a friend who's partner napped for 3 hours on the sofa because he woke at 4 with their toddler while she was in with the baby! One night of the week doesn't really cut the mustard. Both of you decided to have the child so it should be joint responsibility, work or no work. They'll win a dad of the year prize for doing half the load from all their friends and family anyway, more than likely!

This has I advertently turned into one of the most fascinating threads I have ever read! I had no idea people's lives could be like this and it's given me so much to think about so thank you all for contributing.
It seems in answer to my question its all three?! You either just adjust and cope, or you have a breakdown or you just hate your life and look forward to the day it changes. Or all three. Breathtaking honesty in all cases this is why I love this site so much. People rarely talk in such honest detail in real life and so we don't know what our friends/neighbours/other mums are going through really.
Astounding and has made me even more in awe of sleep deprived mums and know how lucky I am as I honestly don't think I would have the strength. (Based on me being such a loser after one night of no sleep)

Mind you, 17 years later, my sleep pattern is shot to pieces.
Same here. I haven't slept more than a 3 hour stretch since 1995
Neither DC slept through as a baby or even a toddler. We were still getting woken when DS2 was 8 or 9.

What I did that helped me function when I had a baby and a 2 year old was to go to bed at 8pm. The bits of sleep added together were enough then.

Partly you get used to it, partly you cry on your partner who then is guilted into helping. I had a shit time at 4 - 6 months with my baby, genuinely was miserable and existing on maybe 3 hours sleep a night (not in one go), then decided to stop breastfeeding exclusively so that boyfriend could help. I feel significantly better now (9 months), even though she still wakes up once a night most nights, scared of mentioning the sleeping through over the last week in case it scares it away I'm sure my boyfriend feels a bit shitter now too, but you know.. my care factor on that is 0, did it alone for 6 months with not one night of help, so nur.

Also interesting to read people's points of view about the CC/CIO debate. Although I'm acutely aware I'm not in a position to fully judge seeing as I've had a 'sleeper' I must admit I'm not sure it's worth years of hell for everyone just because you don't want to at least try letting a baby cry to see if it can settle itself. Fair enough if you have tried, have an ill baby or SN child or whatever reason but to not try at all and then have years of total hell seems a bit extreme. Again I'm aware I'm not in the best position to say but a balance is usually the healthiest way to go about most things in life and years of rage, depression, dangerous driving and illness isn't a balance!
I was interested to see the bits about a sleep nanny. Again I didn't know these things existed. I'd pay £1000 to avoid years of hell that seems a reasonable price for happiness..

Those asking why we haven't tried some kind of sleep training... Do you really think we haven't?!

With DC1 I tried everything bar CIO (not sure that would have helped with chronic nightmares & colic tbh!) With DC2 I just accept that some babies (my babies!) wake more than others.

Might have BDT but we could both take turns getting up at silly o clock with dcs at the weekend so at least one day a week we could sleep in until at least 7 although in my case i'd hve to wake DH and remind him it was his turn which kind of wasn't the point of me having a lie in but still

Co-slept and breastfed - I had to go back to work when DD1 (terrible sleeper) was 3 months old - full time from just over 4 months. I gave up even trying to get her to sleep in the moses basket/cot after one night I actually fell asleep feeding her sitting in a chair with her on my knee. I side slept and she helped herself bf and hardly woke me up at all. Before that I had fallen asleep at work sitting at my computer with my hand on the mouse . Then I used to lie down with her to get her sleep in her own bed but if she woke up in the night she'd come into our bed. She only stopped doing that when DD2 was about 1 yr old (she was nearly 7). DD2 (by then a SAHM) I just co-slept from birth -thought it wasn't worth the hassle not to. Now 8 she still comes in if she wakes in the night. I should say that I (and DP) are lucky that it doesn't wake us up/disturb us.
I do know lack of sleep though - DP worked long hours (9 - midnight 6 days a week), my work was very competitive so a few nights a week I used to go back to work for a couple of hours when he got home at midnight - 4hrs sleep is the minimum I can function on - and after few weeks I will crash for 8hrs (and feel worse for it).

I regret 2 things - both trying to get them to 'learn to get themselves to sleep'. And both times because I thought that's what I should be doing...
When DD1 was 3-4 I had weeks of putting her back to bed and not giving her eye contract etc ...and it never really worked that well. With DD2 it was trying to get her to go to sleep for a nap in her cot in the afternoon at around 18 months (I did try controlled crying - the second day the neighbour asked me if everything was ok - I gave up and just used to lie on a chest next to her cot with the side down instead).
In retrospect I think neither were necessary -believe it or not -DD1 (now 14) does get herself to sleep and sleeps through in her own bed -needs to be prised out in the mornings (and more difficult to persuade her it might be a good idea to go to sleep before 2am! - I have to take her phone off her) And DD2 (8) will go and get herself to bed on her own - no problems...

Crack on, you just crack on.

Ds 1 did not sleep a full night till he was nearly 5 and at school.

I can honestly say I felt my bones were drenched with chronic exhaustion, physically sick, nauseous, holding onto the kitchen work surface to stop me collapsing in a heap.

Looking longingly at the floor of a public toilet thinking how I could lie down for just 2 minutes on it.such was my desperation.

I worked night shifts, had no one to take ds in the day so stayed up & would be up multiple times the night before and after my shifts.

Now ds 2 is waking between 4/5am for the day at the moment, sleep is rubbish.

Tired ALL THE FUCKING TIME, but life goes on.

Haven't read the full thread, can't concentrate for that long. I hang out with other sleep deprived people it makes me feel normal.

(..and I was introduced to melatonin.)

Well it sounds as though some people have not tried it because they don't want to which is of course, their prerogative! In my experience it was incredible and lead to a much happier child and a much less anxious mother which has got to be good for everyone. it also made it possible for grandparents to have dd overnight which they, she and we love and would be impossible with a non sleeping child.

I followed this, it was really simple in my sleep deprived state and not too complicated.
You will need a glass of wine for the first night and nerves of steel.

www.jofrost.com/controlled-timed-crying-technique-ctct/

Cc never worked with ours because ds1 had reflux and also has asd (which we didn't know at the time), so would just cry and never settle. And with ds2 it's not the getting to sleep but the constant waking, so leaving him for a few minutes to self settle still wakes you every 45 mins anyway.

We tried the no cry sleep solution but they cry more when they can see you, having you out of arms reach just makes them angry, and you wouldn't like them when they are angry...hulk smash!

It also doesn't help that are huge boys and can demolish and dismantle most things in the house, so leaving them to destroy their room/cot isn't great. Ds2 wriggles so violently in the night that he wakes himself up by cracking his head on the cot/bed.

And as for being too polite to say this in real life? No way, I tell all and sundry. Really, don't get behind me in the queue at Lidl! I have told so many people not to have children, and genuinely meant it too. It's really hard.

Now I just need her to get rid of her dummy at night, she is almost 3, any tips???

2 non-sleepers. With dd, my first, I read up obsessively, got lots of advice but she was still difficult. In the end I just gave in to co-sleeping and bf-ing in bed. It was trying all the different things that did not work and got dd more upset that was stressful. Once I accepted that dd was just what she was, it was easier psychologically.

When ds arrived 3 years later, everyone said lightning could not strike twice but guess what, it did. By this time, I knew what I was dealing with on the sleep front. I smiled sweetly at the HV who promised this miraculous sleep training solution and then blanked her. I did it my and ds' way.

I feel proud of it. Like unlucky83, my children's sleep is such a non-issue at 11 and 8. They are so totally cuddly (which is probably what contributed to the frequent waking when babies). It is their nature and personality. Not everything is a problem that needs to be fixed now.

I am saying this to those who cannot understand why some people do not want to do CC/CIO. Obviously, it works for other parents and their babies are different.

I have been known to catnap while sitting on the loo at work.............

My kids sleep fine now unless they are ill but I seem to be chronically exhausted and stressed. Blood and thyroid tests all fine, just seems to be how it is. Too much to think about all the time. I fantasize about crawling under a rock for a week but then I know I'd worry about how they were all coping and miss them too much. I'd like to wake up and feel energized and happy again.

Oh and to the poster who said they wouldn't give their baby scotch etc, I really would happily give them something (not booze) to help them sleep if I could. I don't understand why in this country there isn't something that would help. I asked my doctor about melatonin (sp?) for ds1 (who still regularly has to be driven at midnight) but they looked like I had suggested he chase the dragon. They just head tilt and say 'it must be tough, have you tried a warm soothing bath?' Cue more rage and some crying, but mostly rage

You're not a wimp. I think you do just get used to it.

With my first child it was hell. I thought I might die. She slept through at eight months (after starting weaning and some sleep training; I was desperate) which wasn't too bad but it's still not foolproof now she's two (though she's mostly pretty good now). Up until she was eighteen months I was filled with horror if I woke up to that tell-tale wail in the middle of the night. I didn't know how anyone did it with a toddler too.

But! Now I have a second and it's just not nearly as bad, despite the fact that he cries far more than she did and is still (at five months) waking every three hours. Maybe it's not having PND this time; I don't know. Maybe it's being older and better equipped to deal with lack of sleep. I'm not even that grumpy these days. Sometimes I'm still extremely grumpy

Cc/CIO just isn't for me. I've researched, and it would have felt cruel to me. We just went with it, trusted it would pass and co-slept/fed as necessary!