AIBU re gender neutral expectations?

[SrAssumpta]

When I was pregnant with DD I was a bit of a gender neutral nazi, it was all very well intended but perhaps a little obsessive and my desire for a gender neutral world for children seemed to produce an intense dislike for typical "girly" toys etc.

DD is 4 now and although I don't ever recall actually saying anything negative about the typical toys geared towards girls, it's definitely rubbed off on her and while I'm so proud of the little person she's become, I can't help but notice that she seems to think she should be choosing Batman over Barbie, pirates over princesses etc. I would have really liked to see what her preferences would have been had I not put such emphasis on gender neutral everything?

I heard a conversation the other day two women saying how the pink bikes with ribbons make them sick and raving about what little tomboys their girls are, but this is still seems like putting expectations on the children? It actually makes me cringe how much importance seems to be placed on girls not liking girly things nowadays and I think it's gone from gender neutral to anti typical girl?

wow. Lurcioagain, you are such a sweet and friendly person to chat with... One order not instantly jumped at, and streams of abuse ensue - are you like this with your family in RL???

You re very ill informed as well, and many abstracts of peer reviewed research are freely available, even if the whole paper is subscription only, not to mention those scientific journals that are free anyway.

You have to ask your self why this research upset feminists so much. They HATE it!

LurcioAgain what ever, I think you'll find most of the british psychiatric association disagree with you, in fact, I don't think you will find many people in the BPA who even realise anyone disputes it, but like I said, a lot of feminists hate this.

You woud think the would be all for free speech and the progress of scientific understanding, wouldn't you.

Go ahead, give me another order! I rarely get a chance to laugh at someone giving me orders, its great fun. Most people only give me orders if they are entitled to.

the progress of scientific understanding

People who care about the progress of scientific understanding have no problem citing their sources.

I always wonder whether the mums who make a big thing about being "gender neutral" (which in reality seems to mean rejoicing when boys puck traditional girl things and tother way round) apply that she they're doing their own clothes shopping.
Children learn by example mostly, so if you want them to think they can choose boy or girl clothes, then they should also be buying from the men's section.

^womans brains distinguish colours in the red/pink range with far igher definition than mens.

It has been shown that even female monkeys show a marked preference to these colours compared to male monkeys.^

Wahahaha! That is literally the funniest thing I've ever read on here. How about Victorian monkeys then, when the baby colours were the other way around? Did they see lots more shades of girly blue?

DD2, nearly 3, whose formative early years were at the height of Frozen-mania, is drawn to all things blue and turquoise

DeeWee. I do, i often wear "men's shirts" and definitely my socks. I have two DD's and despite having carefully trod the "what do you want?" / There is just "stuff" not girls/boys stuff.
I have two mostly stereotypically girl adhering daughters. This is fine. These are their preferences. As they get older I notice they move more towards other factors. They got very keen on lego froends for eg. Now it is all lego.
I'm not sure emulation is huge. I never wear makeup. They sometimes do and own heels. These things are not me. They have clearly taken more to these marks of femininity than I ever did. I don't have a problem with it. Nor do I encourage it (still no to ear piercing so young).

DD2, nearly 3, whose formative early years were at the height of Frozen-mania, is drawn to all things blue and turquoise

DD1s favourite colour is any and all shades of green, has been since she was tiny.

Back to the OP, there is a problem with some forms of pushing gender neutral is that you didn't really push gender neutral, you taught your DD that anything aimed at girls was inferior. This can be a problem as pink is so closely associated with girls, that it can be seen as "things for girls are inferior so girls are inferior".

Gender neutral wouldn't be "no pink" it would be "some pink, but no more than any other colour" - this is hard for girls clothes as they are mainly pink so you do have to make an effort not to buy pink to avoid it being the bulk of your DD's wardrobe. I don't particularly like pink (and it doesn't suit DD), but I buy some pink, but it's one of a range of colours, including blue.

She plays with a lot of her brother's toys, but does have some "girly" toys - mainly because no one bought anything like dolls for DS so when asked for her 2nd birthday "what shall we get you don't already have?" it was pretty much only things aimed for girls.

A range is more healthy for boys and girls, although I made an effort not to buy just blue for DS or things that said "trouble" on them, I did end up with a range of colours for him that didn't include pink. It is the only colour that is solely linked with a particular gender (lots of blue dresses and trousers for girls around, not seen anything pink in the boys department in 5.5years of looking at boys clothes).

Which is weird because pink is such a big colour for men these days. Every office is filled with big blokes in pink shirts.

so if you want them to think they can choose boy or girl clothes, then they should also be buying from the men's section.

Not entirely a fair comparison, given that if I did that I'd have no visible feet or arms, they'd just be swathed in excess fabric. But there is a fair point to be made about trying to model what not being influenced by gender stereotypes look like, e.g. trying to avoid complaining about being fat / ugly / needing to 'put your face on' etc...

*feet or hands, I meant!

It's an interesting topic OP. I had a boy for my first, and was naturally drawn to more gender neutral clothing for him; mostly primary colours and stripes (thanks Jools Oliver!). His toddler toys were, I thought, a good mix; brio trains, duplo, toy kitchen, play doh and a toy buggy.

When DD came along I dressed her in his hand-me-downs. She was mostly mistaken for a boy and I didn't care. Then as she approached the age of two, she suddenly developed a strong preference for all things pink and glittery. She's 2.10 now and all about fairies and princesses. I'm actually quite proud of determined she is, in the face of my aversion to the colour pink and plastic sparkly tiaras, but I do wonder where the heck it came from.

You didn't really push gender neutral, you taught your DD that anything aimed at girls was inferior.

I'm afraid I have to agree with Dinosaurs on this OP. Being truly gender neutral would mean avoiding both Barbie and Batman, or embracing them equally rather than setting up a dichotomy. Do you have a son? If so, how have you approached the issue with him? And if not, how would you?

No I certainly didn't teach her that things aimed at girls were inferior at all but I think the fact I was always there to offer the choice of either sort of implied it alright, which is so bizarre as I said in the other thread its my room that's pink and full of make up etc but I just always wanted her to know she had a choice and it didn't matter what aisle we were in.

Though having that choice rammed in your face does probably give the impression I'd have preferred her to choose the "boy" thing and I think a parent's approval means much more to children than the general marketing rubbish we see, that's why I think we should be very careful not to push choice so much that it speaks for itself.

Could it be that she does, having been given the choice, actually prefer the non-pink stuff, but in spite of you always giving her a free choice is anxious because it goes against what friends say and, indeed, goes against your choices?

I guess the problem is that trying to encourage free choice does mean, to some extent, encouraging children to feel free to go against the grain, but even with parents support that can be a distressing thing to do. But is the alternative just giving into girl/boy stereotypes? (A pp talked about the potential for bullying if a child goes against stereotypes, which is a problem - but if no child goes against stereotypes then the stereotypes woll never change, IYSWIM).

I dot beleive the op's backstory! But there's no reason gender neutral has to be anti girl. If you're vilifying typically feminine things and using te word tomboy (ever!) then you're doing it wrong.

I think this is the risk with down-playing the pink princess stuff too much.

I HATE pink as a signpost to all things for girls as the things that they signpost almost all emphasise that being female is primarily about how you look; whereas 'boy' non-pink things are primarily about what you do.

However, I can remember my mum being really anti-Barbie and anti-pink and as a little girl I was always confused and felt conflicted about why she was always horrible about these things that I was attracted to so I didn't want to express my opinion to DD, just provide a non-pink, non- barbie offering.

I basically avoided buying pink and princess for DD for as long as possible and encouraged family to do likewise for DD when they asked about birthday/Xmas presents.

DD1 became very attracted to Disney princesses aged about 4 and I relaxed then.

I've been much more relaxed with DD2 (no time and the house has plenty of pink sparkly tat now) yet DD2 has decided she hates dresses and wants to be a pirate .

I dot beleive the op's backstory! How peculiar, I'm having a discussion not trying to prove anything and I've questioned the way I've dealt with things myself so why on earth would I come on an anonymous internet forum and tell lies

I don't think that you can socially engineer things the way you want them. It is often counter productive. In my experience parents who try and be gender neutral end up with a girl who then finds everything 'girly' highly desirable.

My dd was pink, lilac, mint green and white. I just like it!

totallybewildered I suggest you read Cordelia Fine's Delusions of Gender for a good, rational analysis of the evolutionary psychology studies.

I think it's a bit like feminists saying in one breath that girls should be allowed to be who they want and think how they like (something I totally agree with) and then in the next breath having a go at people for liking pink or giving anything vaguely pink to their daughters. Hypocritical much?

Which they continue doing with adult women too. That patronising tone of " of course you can wear what you like but you must realise you don't really freely choose it, you are just oppressed by the patriarchy into performing femininity "

I am a feminist. Feminism to me is about choice. I don't see why I should hate pink/barbies/princesses or force my DC to hate them too.

I agree that it would not be ok to force all the glittery princess twaddle on a girl just because they're a girl - let them choose! I loved fairy princess stuff when I was little but was also obsessed with dinosaurs and cars and my parents were very happy to have me playing with both.

I think Callin and Postino see what they want to see.

There's a thread on FWR about drag queens. I'm completely indifferent to them. I don't find them entertaining but beyond that have no opinion. Most posters find them offensive. One poster however said

I find some drag offensive. Likewise I find some born women's gender performance offensive.

So basically natural born, real women who don't conform to her approved way of being a woman are offensive. It's clear from the context of the thread that the gender performance she finds offensive is not women being masculine.

I know exactly what you mean. I'm a lesbian and have a lot of lesbian friends. Once, when dd was about 4, we met some of them in town and Dd asked me if we could go and look at the "princess dresses" in a bridal shop close by. I said "yes love, in a minute". The other women were absolutely horrified and said "oh fgs, are you serious? That's terrible". They felt and said that Dd ought not to be encouraged to wear dresses and enjoy stupid, sexist things like weddings and princesses but should instead be wearing dungarees and playing with mud etc. As if she wasn't capable of both! They were really shocked that as a gay mum I'd "encouraged her to be like that".

I am very girly, I love being like that. Dd is incredibly girly and romantic and always has been, she was born like that! She loves wearing feminine clothes and wearing a bit of make up now she's older. She also does martial arts and loves sports. That is her choice. I avoided these women after that. I felt their comments were just as prejudiced as people who are vehemently the other way around.