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AIBU?

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Original poster

to think 'the sun' is utter scum over the queen's 'nazi salute' ?

282 replies

mrsfuzzy · 18/07/2015 09:06

it might be 'historical significance' but is it really ? the film taken in 1933 shows the royal family doing nazi salutes. the 'salute' was not really known about then as to what it would come to signify and this seems scummy behaviour on behalf of the sun to print it.
everyone now involved is dead, but the queen still has to hear it,
i'm not into royalty but this seems shitty in my book.

OP posts:
boltofblue · 19/07/2015 16:28

DadfromUncle,

I do take your point, and I wouldn't judge the queen on this incident, and I don't know the Queen personally, so I am only going on a sense I get, and I suppose my own prejudices. However, not all of the things I referred to happened so far ago. Prince Charles's education was a long time ago, the wedding to Diana (I can't believe the Queen didn't have a role in that, and by the 1980s, weren't we more enlightened), and Prince Philip's views seem to be quite a current thing. I just suspect if we knew the queen personally, we would be shocked by her views on many matters that may be out of kilter with the country.

DadfromUncle · 20/07/2015 09:48

boltofblue I have no idea what your point is about Prince Charles' education and the Queen's role in it. Whatever it is, these decisions (Gordonstoun) were being made 53 years ago.

In fact he was the first heir apparent to go to school rather than have a private tutor in the Palace.

Contemporary Pathe News Reel mentions that his Dad went to Gordonstoun and that it was likely chosen as an attempt to be less "establishment and remote" than the obvious choice which would have been Eton.

DoraGora · 20/07/2015 10:11

They don't teach the history of British fascism in school. They don't teach the fact that Churchill gave permission for the imprisoned Mosleys to live in a house within Holloway Prison, sunbathe, grow vegetables and keep servants.

I'll have to look up the address of Holloway, sounds nice there.

boltofblue · 20/07/2015 10:36

It's not hugely relevant, but it's well known that Charles had quite a miserable childhood and education. He subsequently had quite a miserable marriage.

DadfromUncle · 20/07/2015 10:46

Charles is quoted as saying his school was like Colditz with Kilts - but hard to see that the Queen was to blame any more than any parent choosing a school. I doubt she knew in advance - and no doubt Prince Philip would have had some influence. I expect she thought she was doing the best thing, like most parents.

Not sure why people are so keen to paint the Queen in such a bad light. On many issues she's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. She's open to loads of attack all the time but doesn't really have a channel to put her side. I have no idea if she's nice or nasty, but I'd prefer to believe she's basically OK unless I see any proper evidence to the contrary.

LuluJakey1 · 20/07/2015 11:02

The Prince Harry thing was a not very bright 17 year old boy just not thinking. It is ridiculous to connect it to anything else.

As for the older members of the Royal Family, their world was a different place.

They were German themselves. German royalty was part of their family life. Remember the surname of the Queen was Saxe-Coburg Gotha. Windsor was picked up in World War 1 to distance them from their German relatives, out of worry the country would turn on them. Prince Phillip had 4 sisters and 3 of them married German aristocrats who became Nazi officers. He has nephews and nieces who are German royalty. It does not make him a Nazi. His sister, her husband and 3 nieces and nephews died in a plane crash and he attended the funeral alone as a 15/16 year old boy. It was in Germany about 1936 and he found himself walking with Nazi officers behind the coffin. But he fought for Britain in the war- he wasn't a Nazi. The Sun loves to simplify and reduce everything to the most extreme interpretation that suits its purpose. It wasn't a simple, straightforward time and was very much tied into the First World War and the Russian Revolution - another very difficult event for the Royal Family.

There was a distrust of Jews. Jews have always been persecuted and seen as outsiders. And Hitler did have ideas to sort out aspects of German life. When a country is struggling economically it is very easy to latch onto those things that are being improved and blame 'outsiders' for the things that are wrong - how many things do we read about asylum seekers and Easter European migrants in England? We are building up a massive feeling of distrust, alienation of them.

The Duke of Windsor was a weak, self-indulgent, narcissistic character his whole life. He was definitely a Nazi sympathiser.

I am not saying Prince Phillip does not have his faults but he is a product of his time and his background, as is the Queen.

LaVolcan · 20/07/2015 11:16

Not sure why people are so keen to paint the Queen in such a bad light.

On the contrary, the majority of posters are not trying to paint the Queen in a bad light. The Queen Mother, as she subsequently became, is a different kettle of fish. We had 50 years of her as being painted as the nation's favourite granny, as a sweet old lady, whereas in practice she probably shared the same opinions as her brother-in-law, and would IMO have supported whichever side was most expedient for her to support.

When a country is struggling economically it is very easy to latch onto those things that are being improved and blame 'outsiders' for the things that are wrong - how many things do we read about asylum seekers and Easter European migrants in England? We are building up a massive feeling of distrust, alienation of them.

Which I think is why it's important now, to question - as people were already doing by 1933. The excuse that "we didn't know" didn't fully wash then, because plenty of people already knew exactly what Hitler and his pals were up to. It shouldn't wash now either.

motherinferior · 20/07/2015 11:34

If my 14-year-old dressed up as a Nazi for a party, there would be hell to pay. Not least from her friends.

BertrandRussell · 20/07/2015 11:38

"The Prince Harry thing was a not very bright 17 year old boy just not thinking."

And nobody- not his older brother, his father, his valet, his advisors, his friends- nobody suggested it was a bad idea?

motherinferior · 20/07/2015 11:41

My father is a mere nine years younger than the queen. Same generation, still buys the whole "they stayed in London during the Blitz" line though is in every other way pretty republican.

I am not particularly fond of my father but he's never done a Nazi salute in his life.

LuluJakey1 · 20/07/2015 11:45

As I remember he was away at school and it was a party. Anyway, if it worked the way you suggest 17 year olds wouldnever make mistakes, and of course they do.

AbbyCadabra · 20/07/2015 11:46

Exactly, Bertrand. And may I pedantically point out that Harry was 20 at the time, not 17.

Sallyingforth · 20/07/2015 11:55

whereas in practice she probably shared the same opinions as her brother-in-law, and would IMO have supported whichever side was most expedient for her to support.

And your evidence for this opinion is?

BertrandRussell · 20/07/2015 11:59

17 year olds- and 20 year olds- make loads of mistakes. Don't know another one that thinks dressing up as a Nazi is a good plan...........

Sansarya · 20/07/2015 12:00

The Prince Harry thing was a not very bright 17 year old boy just not thinking.

IIRC, it was for a "Colonials and Natives" costume party held by some of his chums. Who clearly thought that such a theme was not remotely racist!

Sansarya · 20/07/2015 12:01

Oh, Harry was 20? Well I don't know any 20 year old who would think dressing as a Nazi was a good idea. Come to think of it, I don't know any 13 year olds who would either...

BertrandRussell · 20/07/2015 12:04

Interestingly- but probably irellevantly- my ds was recently a member of the Hitler youth in a play. He put a picture of himself in costume on Facebook and it was taken down.

motherinferior · 20/07/2015 12:06

He was 20.

I made a lot of mistakes when I was 20, but I never dressed up as a Nazi.

motherinferior · 20/07/2015 12:07

And in all honesty if I had a famously Nazi-sympathising uncle I'd be even more careful not go around dressing up as a Nazi.

Hemlockinthegarden · 20/07/2015 12:09

Rupert Murdoch, the "Dirty Digger" and his little games.

He really hates the English establishment doesn't he. I don't watch SKY, or read the Sun or the Times, but I bet they have been getting all worked up about this "story".

I wonder who nicked/copied the film to send it to the sun?

Hemlockinthegarden · 20/07/2015 12:10

I wonder what Kay Burley's take on it all is!!

motherinferior · 20/07/2015 12:11

In fact Going Around Dressed As A Nazi has been fairly off-limits for anyone for rather a long time.

DadfromUncle · 20/07/2015 12:16

I am not particularly fond of my father but he's never done a Nazi salute in his life. Good for him - when we were kids at school we all did hundreds - but that doesn't make me a Nazi and him not.

WhirlyTwos · 20/07/2015 13:21

Not RTFT, but it seems pretty un-newsworthy. Perhaps it is simply a deflection by Murdoch press from something else?

DadfromUncle · 20/07/2015 13:23

It is because Murdoch personally and therefore all Murdoch press and media has an anti-Royal agenda. He is an awoved Republican so wishes to do anything he can to stir up anti-Royal feeling.