to ask for a justification of inset days

[5Foot5]

Really, really don't want to sound like I am teacher-bashing here. This is a genuine question.

There is a story being discussed on the news programme about a school which has decided to have all of its inset days at one go so that parents could potentially take advantage of term time prices for holidays. This got me thinking about the timing of inset days generally.

I assume that these days are used for training and /or acquainting staff with the myriad changes imposed on them all the time by government.

But, here is the question, why do these days have to be taken during what would otherwise be term time? Why are they not held during the school holidays when there is surely enough capacity to accommodate these days?

Can i add that I am no longer affected by this since DD has now left school but it really has only just occurred to me..

Then I suspect you don't know many people in the public or charity sector! The vast majority of people I know in these sectors work evenings and weekends, miss birthdays and holidays, have to stay for 24 hours or more with no notice if staffing / clinical need dictates, bring in things for patients, go shopping in their own time with their own money etc etc

Teachers work hard, we get it. Stop trying to ram that down people's throats (because you just end up getting into a pointless pissing competition) and concentrate on lobbying politicians about the key issues, which will do you much more good in terms of being able to do your job effectively.

INSET days are held in the holidays, they came out of teacher's holidays and not out of the days that children were taught.

Iggi mine do considerably longer hours than I do as a teacher, but then I used to be a corporate lawyer and lots of my friends still are.

I also used to be a riding instructor, which was also longer hours for considerably less pay. It was also extremely physically demanding.

I don't complain about my hours or pay as a teacher.

I agree with the issue about staffing and recruitment being at crisis point, I totally understand why you are voting with your feet and wish you luck with that.
And people are wrong about it being paid holiday, however, trying to counter that with 'but it's not paid' 'we work in the holidays' 'we work longer than our contracted 32.5 hours a week' is counter productive because the hours and holiday issue means that teachers are being paid more for doing less.
Anyone who thinks that teachers just do the basics and have 6 weeks off haven't got a clue and don't want to have one, if they did they wouldn't be burying their heads in the sand.

'lobbying politicians about the key issues' .

I believe we might have tried that one. It would be fair to say that this Government know they've lost the teacher vote & don't give a shit, if bashing us means they hang on to the Express readers.

Things have changed drastically & rather horribly in a few short years. I've got lots of friends in other bits of the public sector, & they've experienced the same. It's not a pissing contest: as far as I'm concerned we're in the same boat, & should be pissing out, not over each other.

I work in the charity sector and we'd be actively discouraged from shopping for clients with our own money.

This government doesn't give a toss about the key issues or teachers ' conditions.

Teachers work hard, we get it. Stop trying to ram that down people's throats (because you just end up getting into a pointless pissing competition) and concentrate on lobbying politicians about the key issues, which will do you much more good in terms of being able to do your job effectively.

I have yet to see a thread begun by teachers saying how hard they work. What they do is counter claims that they have cushy life. Not quite the same as ramming it down people's throats.

No, but it is interested in the views of the voting public and in order to effect change the public sector needs to manage this not get into conflict with them.

And my experience of the charitable sector is very different to yours sooty, both as a trustee and a volunteer and friends who work in the sector.

*goes off to drink a mug of tea in readiness for the pissing contest. Wanna do myself proud. In all seriousness my MN holiday is over. I rationed myself to 24 hours or I'll get drawn in. Cheers guys

I recently heard of 2 local schools doing the 5 inset days together thing and think this sounds like a fantastic idea.

I get that teachers work hard but I am a nurse and also work hard plus am a single parent and the inset days can be a complete pita to cover.

Grumpy yes amongst the friends I'm thinking of are charity sector, public, private inc self employed. I am thinking of the ones with degrees as that is a fairer comparison with education, not work with horses swallowed!
I also know friends who can claim toil when they work extra time, and have done so myself when working in a different public sector role.
As both a teacher and a vegetarian I often find myself subject to these "don't ram it down our throats" rants; when what has happened is the teacher/vegetarian has been placed under attack for simply existing.

Obviously our experience is different Grumpy

I work in the third sector and in addition I'm management chair of a charity. In both organisations spending your own money on clients, either as a worker or volunteer, is considered a breach of professional boundaries.

'And people are wrong about it being paid holiday, however, trying to counter that with 'but it's not paid' 'we work in the holidays' 'we work longer than our contracted 32.5 hours a week' is counter productive because the hours and holiday issue means that teachers are being paid more for doing less.'

But if you sat in a staffroom you probably wouldn't hear us moaning about working through our holidays - it's more common to hear 'phew, next week I can have some peace & quiet to get stuck into that wretched scheme of learning HOD has been nagging me for'. Every teacher I know is fully aware that it's a seasonal year with peaks & troughs of work throughout - those that can't get their heads round that tend not to last long. & yes, I agree, this is the same as in many professions.

The same factual inaccuracies about '13 weeks paid holidays' get trotted out on EVERY teacher-bashing thread, though; whereas with my solicitor, say, (I'm currently going through an appalling divorce) I just assume if he's not in his office or in court then he's working from home, because that is what professionals do, quite a lot of the time. For all I know he's got his feet up in front of Jezza Kyle half the week.

There really does seem to be a widely held colllective belief that the work teachers do = the work we saw them do when we were at school, ie. just the actual contact time bit. So yes, we perhaps do get slightly niggled by it & feel the need to put people right.

They might not technically be extra but because of the way that childcare works it's an extra day off work for me because there's no childcare available. And of course I don't resent having teachers who are trained; I'm just fucked off because I only get 25 days off a year and they are eaten into by these days

Maybe you should have thought about that before having children, you know, the uncomfortable and awkward fact that you migt have to look after them

Knew it would turn into a teacher bashing thread. Sorry but we are paid to teach your children 190 days not provide child care. In addition we have 5 compulsory INSET days and the most valuable session is to do with child safety and safer recruitment. In one of our first INSET days next year we are having a session on Mental Health First Aid and in our Easter Session there in a slot for peer moderation assessment with a neighbouring school. I view INSET important for both staff and students.

The rest of the year I am unpaid and you have to sort out your own childcare or take unpaid leave.

Oh and i also work full time with exactly the same restrictions on my life as you, cruikshank. You aren't a special case, we all need to work to keep roofs over our heads. However i do not see it as the state's responsibility to provide care for the offspring that i have chosen to bear.

Oh dear, we really are going around in circles.

FWIW I'm a lecturer, so totally aware of how much work there is outside face to face teaching. How there is a misconception that you get summer off when nothing could be further from the truth etc etc. but slating people because they don't know this is pointless. And slagging people off because they are concerned about how to manage childcare is only going to turn people against your cause.

Parents have valid concerns, teachers have valid concerns but while ever each group refuses to understand the others concerns the relationships between the groups isn't going to improve. Which is particularly important when, as someone said upthread, politicians aren't interested in teachers views. Whilst politicians can convince the public that teachers are not hard working they will be able to get away with trying to drag more and more blood out of the stone until like a previous poster teachers vote with their feet. If you want teaching to survive this storm teachers need to engage better with parents rather than retreat and throw stones when the feel got at.

What "cause?" School holidays and Inset days are actually nothing to do with teachers. We just appear to get the blame for them.

Schools are not childcare. You know before you have them that they have holidays and they need them! Since Inset days were taken out of teacher's holidays and teacher need up to date training I can't see the fuss.
I get the impression that some people don't care as long as they get free childcare and would have the poor children at school all the time, apart from short breaks that suit them!

Aah, the old 'free childcare' argument. Actually it's not about that is it, it's about managing the changing arrangements in a society where not many people can afford to be at home all day on the off chance that school might not be open.

The 'cause' to my mind is that teachers are expected to teach in such a restrictive way which doesn't give kids the skills they need for life, that they are expected to work towards pointless targets, be all things to all people without any extra resources, that teachers are tired of being misunderstood and undervalued by a government which is hell bent on breaking any sort of influence that teachers as a group have. They seem to oscillate between the NHS and education to do this - it's currently doctors taking the brunt of it.
The point I've been trying to make (apparently unsuccessfully) is that arguing the toss with people on mumsnet just creates more tension. Why not take a leaf out of doctors books and start tweeting pictures of the pile of work you are doing in the summer holidays?
But (in the spirit of trying to be constructive), don't start from the premise 'we're not paid for this', because rather than help your case, it makes it look like you are paid a hell of a lot for part time work. To draw a parallel (in case this doesn't make sense) think about a newly qualified nurse, starting wage is a bit lower than nqt, to get the same level of time away from work they would have to lose 3 months of wages so would go from 21k to under 16k, then to be contracted to 32 hours, wages would go to about 14k - figures are are very rough but I'm trying to illustrate the point.
The starting point for you argument isn't our terms are awful, it's that they are not representative. Start showing people what you do and what your challenges are and stop getting distracted by arguing the toss about holidays. In terms of INSET days, stop getting defensive about it and start thinking of creative ways to use them, seems like some people are already doing this.

In terms of INSET days, stop getting defensive about it and start thinking of creative ways to use them, seems like some people are already doing this.

What do you mean by 'getting defensive'? Do you mean when people ask why the training couldn't be done in the school holidays, we shouldn't point out that is exactly what did happen? Is that being defensive?

Exactly rollonsummerholidays. OP seemed unaware that they were already in the holidays- it needed pointing out.

And that's all that was needed, not lots of comments about free childcare, poor planning etc when people were trying to understand why it is configured in the way that it seems to be in most places when there are pockets of other things happening which seem to work equally well for those teachers involved and seemingly are preferred by parents.

When the OP makes inflammatory comments like

Still about 30 days more leave then I get!!

threads tend to move on.