to ask for a justification of inset days

[5Foot5]

Really, really don't want to sound like I am teacher-bashing here. This is a genuine question.

There is a story being discussed on the news programme about a school which has decided to have all of its inset days at one go so that parents could potentially take advantage of term time prices for holidays. This got me thinking about the timing of inset days generally.

I assume that these days are used for training and /or acquainting staff with the myriad changes imposed on them all the time by government.

But, here is the question, why do these days have to be taken during what would otherwise be term time? Why are they not held during the school holidays when there is surely enough capacity to accommodate these days?

Can i add that I am no longer affected by this since DD has now left school but it really has only just occurred to me..

I used to get taken into dms school as a dc and I've seen teachers bring in their dcs on inset days

So teachers wages (starting salary 22k) is for 195 days of 7 hours?

I see where this is going....

Yes but teachers unpaid hours....

1265 hours of directed time, plus whatever is needed over and above, which could be anything up to or beyond 60 hours a week,x 39.

Teachers get paid for 1265 hours of directed time and whatever other hours it takes to get the job done, so the 1265 is a red herring. Second to last week of term, because of the KS3 production and awards evening, I did 54 hours in school, and that's without doing bits and pieces at home. Going with that (admittedly untypical) example, my "paid" hours would be done in 23 weeks.

X-post Clam!

So about 49 hours a week over 39 weeks.

Oh no, I realise that but you could say that about most public sector jobs. I genuinely think teachers (most) do a fantastic job in very, very difficult circumstances. It's a real shame though that this is negated when teachers (some) argue that their terms and conditions are not fantastic when they really are. It makes their very valid points get lost.

I was aware that people say they are not paid for holidays and have had conversations with people before about what this actually means but I always assumed that teachers were paid from 8.30 - 4.30 and then did extra hours because of their dedication to the job.

swallowed - where did you get that? 1265/39 = 32.4

Terms can be good without conditions being good, never mind fantastic.

Sorry my bad.

Obviously it's universally understood that the contracted hours don't tally with the expected hours though.

Absolutely, the terms of employment are brilliant. The conditions that teachers have to work in, aren't. (I was using the term T&Cs in the generic sense in my earlier post.

Teachers arguing the toss about the terms of employment just distracts from the real issues.

So how long is the working week?

For secondary head teachers, it stretches to an average of 63.3 hours per week - the longest of any of the teaching jobs. Primary classroom teachers worked longer hours - 59.3 hours - than their secondary school counterparts, who worked for 55.7 hours per week. The hours in a secondary academy were slightly less, at 55.2 hours.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-27087942

Arguing the toss? Or just attempting (vainly) to address some of the misconceptions held about the realities of the job?

So, if primary teacher average 59.3 hours a week over 39 weeks, that gives a total yearly average of 2312,7 hours ( plus any time spent working during the holidays-perhaps conservatively an hour a day for 10 of the 13 weeks, so add on another 50 hours) 2362.7 shared between a "normal" working year of 48 weeks gives an average of 49.2 hours a week over the year.

I like numbers

Does it matter what the hours worked are?

Obviously some times of the year are busier than others, and as long as the work is done, who is counting?

But by saying these things it doesn't help. Essentially by telling everyone that teachers aren't paid for holidays and are contracted to work 32.5 hours a week you are saying that teachers get paid a significant wage for what would be considered a part time job in other sectors. I.e their hourly pay is significantly more than a graduate job in the NHS for example.

Obviously teachers do more than this, in order to get the job done but so do most people in other sectors with far less favourable terms to start with. So the point I'm making is that these arguments do more harm than good. The real challenges are much more complex than that but being defensive and attacking parents for asking genuine questions really isn't helping.

But you can't ignore the fact that the contracted hours (almost all of which are those at the chalk-face) cannot even begin to happen without hours of preparation beforehand, and hours of additional work after the children have gone home. So, if other sectors consider teaching a part-time job, then frankly they're wrong, and need setting right (if they're banging on about it on a public forum).

I think some of you should try living in rep of Ireland. Where school starts between 9 and 9:20 (depending on the school) and finishes at half 2 or 3. Except for the children in the first year (equivalent of reception)finish an hour before the rest of the school....omg horror...2school runs!!

Also you have to pay for EVERYTHING....books, paper, photpcopying, insurance, pencils, colours, paints,writing books, uniforms (all crested) and anything else that we don't pay for here in UK. There's no such thing as school dinners....you make and send in your children with their own lunch.(AND it has to be healthy!)

No breakfast clubs, very very few after school clubs....

But suprisingly as a country they just get on with it. Friends pick up other friends children if necessary etc etc

I think that's fairly obvious clam.

The hours are obviously longer than 9 to 3. I think quibbling over exactly which paid hours are contracted deflects from the issue.

Exactly swallowed!!

Some of my friends earn more than me, some earn less. None of them do anything like the evening/weekend/holiday work I do. None of them ever spend their own money on resources for work either.

& equally Grumpy, the usual mantra on these threads is that teachers get 13 weeks paid holiday time.

& if we point out that this is simply factually inaccurate as a) it's not paid, according to our contracts & b) it is custom & practice to spend a large proportion of it working, we get jumped on for whingeing!

The bottom line is - teachers' T&C, & the nature of the job, are not currently retaining existing teachers or recruiting new ones at anything like the rate required. This is a problem for all of us, teachers & parents & those of us who are both.

I'm afraid I'm one of the rats leaving the ship; rather than staying here to moan about how crap it is I'm voting with my feet. I've been offered far better T&C overseas & my dc will also have well paid, respected teachers.

You're right that the issues are complex, but a crisis-level shortage of career teachers is fairly fundamental to them.