Tube drivers and their pay

[Flashbangandgone]

It makes me angry.... Surely tube drivers are paid far, far more than jobs with equivalent levels of responsibility, and they only get away with it because they can hold London to ransom... Do they have no shame!?

Aren’t all tube trains going to be ‘Driverless’ in about 20 years, they already are on the docklands light railway.. strikes will just push this initiative forward.

Also begs the questions, if Boris thinks the tube can be run by driverless trains, it can’t be that difficult to be trained up if in-fact you don’t even need a driver.

MrsDeVere This is about class. Look at the 'chimp' type comments.

Well, for me its about gender equality. The job isn't based on fair and equitable quantifiable criteria, such as qualifications and experience. There isn't an open and transparent recruitment procedure. Does it deter certain groups of people from the job? Quite probably. Can anyone tell me how many female tube drivers there as a percentage of women currently? Disparite pay levels between men and women is still a great problem, and setting up protected little niche job sectors for themselves is something that men are very good at.

The hero worship of any man in a traditional working class "male" job on here is pathetic to listen to. If you want to marry a man who will keep you, at least have the honesty to admit that and don't hide behind it being some sort of class warfare.

Its all about class. If this was a traditionally middle class job (like social work which has been mentioned more than once) there wouldn't be this amount of disdain.

Gender equality? How is that conclusion reached on the basis of this thread? Genuine question. IMO it's nary been given a mention because it's nothing to do with it?

It's about the strike, tied in with the salary of driver's (for some reason) regardless of gender.

FWIW though, I know two female drivers on the same salary incidentally. And the criteria for application is equal (I applied once)

Also begs the questions, if Boris thinks the tube can be run by driverless trains, it can’t be that difficult to be trained up if in-fact you don’t even need a driver.

Boris also thinks it will be easy to build a whole airport and its infrastructure in the Thames estuary. Just because he thinks something, doesn't make it gospel.

London Underground has one of the most diverse workforces I've ever seen. Admittedly it used to be a bit of a boys club but not any more. Women are still in the minority when it comes to drivers but there are lots of us about. My last depot was around 25% female drivers but where I am now is a more senior depot so the percentage is lower there. IN the mess room I just left there were 12 people, two women, ten men. All of us from different races and cultures. My manager (big, top boss) is a woman, my immediate line manager today is a women.

It's really not a gender issue

Shakey Its not a conclusion. Its a question, designed to make you think.

I would be really interested to hear if someone could tell me the percentages of male and female tube drivers. I bet its predominately male.

Then pick any work sector which is predominately male and in receipt of a surprisingly high average salary for the required qualifications and experience and strong union representation. I bet its male dominated.

Then have a think about why women are still paid less than men in this country.

Indirect discrimination is all about not barring a certain group from a job or profession, but entrenched practices which have the effect of making it more difficult for them to apply, be accepted, remain, progress, and so on. It might not even be deliberate. But men are very good at organising niche working environments for themselves and protecting them.

MN is awash with threads complaining that they only have 90k a year to live on and how unfair that is.

It really isn't. It is, however, awash with people saying anyone of £30K is a high earner and if you are on £40K, you are living the life of Roman Abramovic.

I don't know the statistics of female drivers but I know it is increasing all the time, in fact there have been recruitment campaigns targeting women to the job

So its still an extensively male dominated job, in other words? The statistics do bear that out.

Of course, employment legislation makes it impossible to bar women from working in it. I'm sure recruitment campaigns for females make for very good publicity. Strange that such male domination still exists. It must have been a real bastion in the past.

Perhaps the gender discussion could be a new thread? Save derailling ( excuse pun) this one which is clearly not about it.

They're striking because their management is trying to force through changes to their contracts that are detrimental to family life.

How would those proposed changes improve the chances of women applying for the jobs? If we're going to look at it from a feminist point of view, we should surely support the strike!

So what is your view on the strike TheChandler? If you're arguing that such a male-dominated workforce should be striving as hard as possible to be family-friendly and maintain a decent work/life balance, otherwise there will be even more barriers to women joining, then I agree with you.

Anyway, apart from all that, it wasn't only the drivers who went on strike.

Tanith beat me to the point.

I think they get paid a reasonable amount, for a fairly stressful, responsible and skilled job.

It's just that damn near everyone else has had their wages pushed further and further down by government/company pressure and bullying. They stood up for themselves effectively, resisted the pressure to change and now their wage looks a bit out of sync.

The Chandler - I've nearly choked on my Wrigleys. Please tell me you don't need to use logic in your job.

Thechandler, most people tend to stay in the job a very long time, unless you sack men to make way for more women it's going to take a long time for numbers to be equal.

I've made my point. It is that men are very good at organising themselves into entrenched niche industries with strong unions, getting high salaries that aren't usually commensurate with the qualifications or experience required, along with the actual job (many jobs far less well paid require high levels of technical expertise and personal responsibility and stress, and longer training) and then striking when that niche is threatened. Many people have far less beneficial terms and conditions for much less pay, the average salaries mentioned go a long way to compensating for shift changes and the like.

I think you have to take facts as they are at present. The job is male dominated. There is no way around that. It is extremely well paid for what is required. You can go on and on as much as you like about how extremely difficult the job is, what is required - most jobs are these days. Many people have to do all sorts in their job (in my field, working all nighters and never receiving overtime for it is standard).

These niche markets tend to take along the less well paid support staff when striking.

Bin-men (and I'm calling them that, because in the UK they nearly always are men) are another example of the same type of thinking. Male dominated job, not badly paid for unskilled manual labour, attracts hero worship types views about how difficult and tiring it is (despite it being heavily mechanised), heavily unionised, modernisation made difficult.

Surely the gender analysis is as valid as the class analysis?

Bin men!
Really!
God in heaven, how many women would want to be a refuse collector?

I think bin men are heroes.
It is an extremely shitty job and I would think most women wouldn't want to do it at any price.

Actually I know a bloke worked on the bins through an agency.
He'd get a phone call at midnight to let him know if he was needed at the depot at 5.00am the next morning.
He was paid minimum wage.

John It would be, if this thread was anything to do with gender

Exactly Mrs De Vere. This country has gone absolutely insane with a mania to push working class pay, employment conditions and living standards down ever lower, whilst demanding that the working class exhibit nothing but gratitude for such treatment. Anyone who dares make a stand for themselves, their communities or families is hounded disgracefully, all for the crime of possessing some guts, grit and bravery.