Tube drivers and their pay

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It makes me angry.... Surely tube drivers are paid far, far more than jobs with equivalent levels of responsibility, and they only get away with it because they can hold London to ransom... Do they have no shame!?

Why shouldn't they earn a good wage

I thought gone were the days when you just had to be thankful you had a job and you had to put up and shut up if the terms you agreed to work were changed

Obviously not according to some. It's irrelevant how much they are earning they feel it is unfair the changes that they are expected to take on there have been very little in the way of negotiations

Salaries are typically around £15,000 to £18,000 a year for collectors and £19,000 for drivers. Managers can earn around £25,000 a year

Oh, those bloody Men keeping all the desirable jobs for themselves!

Seriously though, why does the comparison with EVERYTHING need to be linked to nurses

Nurses don't get a bad wage either, some nurses get paid very well. And nurses also get paid a shift allowance for working nights. Which for some reason tube drivers should not be entitled to.

daisy03 If they can fit driverless systems to cars, which have to manage far more complexities than trains, they can fit them to tube trains, even in London.
In terms of emergency personnel, for the £50k cost of a tube driver, you could replace them with a firefighter and a policeman. I know which I would prefer for emergency help, and it s not a driver.

^ Putin on the thread ^

so one fire fighter and police officer at EACH station - standing around waiting for an emergency? well that's an interesting use of public money

derenstar
Your responses have given me more really good insight, and have challenged many of my pre-conceptions. Whereas my underlying views concerning economics/politics that I've espoused here still remain, and I continue to believe the rail unions are overly powerful, I'm much more ready to accept that (although I'm still not 100% convinced) there is a case for paying tube drivers at their current rate than when I opened this discussion when I understood their roles and responsibilities to be far less than they actually seem to be - they are certainly not trained chimps. I will retire from this thread gracefully!

ghosty one firefighter and a policeman on each driverless train waiting for an emergency, not station, would be cheaper than the current set-up. The technology exists, so I see no reason, other than tube driver unions, for it not to be implemented.

Ooh that's a brilliant idea, though make it one police officer (doesn't need to be a man after all ), one firefighter and a paramedic on every train. Also make it a 24 hour shift too, be easier and more cost effective. Somehow.

Ayeamerok nurses do not get bad pay?

What other profession are you comparing it to? The average pay if a nurse in the UK is 25k. Greed selfish little madams wanting extra money for nightshift

I suspect if there were more men in the profession they would be on similar wage and conditions to tube drivers!

I simply don't believe anyone is on more than £20k per year for doing a job like a tube driver. This news story has to be bollocks.

Oh dear, back to square one.

How dare tube drivers earn a decent enough wage that they don't need to claim tax credits.

Caroldecker so are the emergency services going to be given the training to fix mechanical and electrical defects as well? That can get a train moving without the need to evacuate

My DB works for the underground. Has done for the last 15 Years. He is the first to admit he is very well paid. Think 50k plus lots of holidays. Every scrap of overtime is claimed. Free travel etc. Final salary pension etc.

He is staying until retirement. His view of Bob crow was that he was great for his workers and didn't give a toss about anyone else.

Not a train driver though. They are better paid.

Could the one paramedic and one policeman have superpowers and be extended for the entire network as that would save even more money. I hear zero hours contract is the way to go, so no emergency, no money, sucker. Genius.

I don't see a problem with TfL recruiting train drivers internally for 2 reasons

1. People have stated the fact that the failure rate it high through open recruitment

2. Starting off in a CSA role and learning the tube lines and other knowledge and promoting staff within who have that knowledge is surely common sense. How many of you in private sector jobs (and I speak for myself here) have been passed up for promotion or not had their career progressed because the company decided to hire externally when you know yourself that you could do that job with the added value of understanding the company, have relationships throughout the company etc and therefore hit the ground running far better than a new person who has never worked there before.

We should celebrate the fact a company recognizes, promotes and provides real staff career progression.

MrsDeVere There is no mechanism to get a massive, full, wheely bin out of a garden, out on to a road and into the lift.

Pushing a wheelie bin! Theres usually two or three of them! When I see them mucking out 15 horses a day, pushing a wheelbarrow of muck through mud to a muck heap after balancing it on a plank, riding said horses with risks associated, all standard for young girls working as grooms on minimum wage, I might be impressed with their manual labour skills.

You are incredibly dismissive of manual labour.

Oh no. Not real manual labour. Definitely not. Go to a racing yard (you'll have to be there for 5.30 am and back again in the evening and at weekends) and just watch how hard the manual labour is there.

From the careers service website re refuse collectors pay.
Income

Salaries are typically around £15,000 to £18,000 a year for collectors and £19,000 for drivers.

Managers can earn around £25,000 a year.

Its the overtime payments that mean some refuse collectors are earning double or more of that. There was a big scandal involving Manchester binmen a few years back, when it was revealed that many of them were regularly taking home 50k pa. It wasn't the only local authority where that happened. I would get sacked if I didn't complete my job within a reasonable time, not paid double time!

Binmen took unpaid leave at the councils decision between Xmas and New Year. Bins overflowed. Back at work they had to work overtime. Is that what you meant, The Chandler?

I've often wondered why bus drivers are paid so much less than train drivers yet are equivalent in terms of being semi skilled, requiring little in the form of formal qualification for job entry prior to training, working similar or worse hours and having to contend with the unpredictability of the roads whilst offering direct customer service to passengers.

I believe the difference is simply supply and demand. There are lots of people who can drive be it cars, or even better hgv so there is a big pool of people who can readily be trained or even train themselves to the extent you might pay for hgv training to make you a better applicant. You can't just pop on a train of your own volition though - you have to wait to get the job though I don't believe the skill required is more nor the task more arduous. So - the pool of labour is (artificially kept?) smaller - though the justification for the pay differential is minimal.

A few people have mentioned that the majority of drivers are male and others have questioned why this is relevant. It is relevant because, as those who remember the Ford Dagenham dispute will know and latterly several local councils, to be considered equivalent a job does not have to be the same. TfL may have other jobs (night cleaner?) that are predominately performed by women, would be rated the same in a job equivalency review but are paid less than the train drivers. This would be an adequate basis for a discrimination case. Train drivers salaries are a real spike on a salary whether you agree with higher pay all round or not and there doesn't seem a great deal to justify that compared to other roles...

Btw - the above points are about pay which I do know is not the explicit reason for the strike however it is relevant as the high rate of pay leads the public to expect drivers to do more to justify it.

lozster A few people have mentioned that the majority of drivers are male and others have questioned why this is relevant. It is relevant because, as those who remember the Ford Dagenham dispute will know and latterly several local councils, to be considered equivalent a job does not have to be the same. TfL may have other jobs (night cleaner?) that are predominately performed by women, would be rated the same in a job equivalency review but are paid less than the train drivers. This would be an adequate basis for a discrimination case. Train drivers salaries are a real spike on a salary whether you agree with higher pay all round or not and there doesn't seem a great deal to justify that compared to other roles...

Thank goodness. Someone else who understands what indirect discrimination is.

Binmen took unpaid leave at the councils decision between Xmas and New Year. Bins overflowed. Back at work they had to work overtime. Is that what you meant, The Chandler?

Like most people, DH and I were required to take our paid leave between Christmas and New Year by our employers. If we used it all up then we would have had to take it as unpaid leave (and probably be subject to a disciplinary hearing as well). The statutory paid leave entitlement in this country is 28 days! So no, its not what I meant.

here is a very recent article with what I think are some very valid points about why there are few female train drivers - I didn't think about some of those issues such as toilet breaks etc. sure you could say that TfL should look for ways to improve it but with it can be challenging

www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/11570829/Female-London-Tube-driverUnderwear-models-are-shoved-down-our-throats.html

JakiOH

What other profession are you comparing it to? The average pay if a nurse in the UK is 25k. Greed selfish little madams wanting extra money for nightshift

I didn't say they were greedy, or selfish. The words never left my fingers. I merely mentioned that on the thread lots of people commented that nurses work nights sometimes. I thought it was worth reminding people that a) that wouldn't come as a surprise as they'd know when then took the job (whereas it wasn't part of the Tube drivers conditions, it was an attempt at a unilateral change) and b) they get paid extra for it. Not sure why that is so difficult to understand?

I'm comparing it to other jobs that graduates do. And other similar public sector jobs, like police, paramedics, social workers, etc.

I am a tube driver (female) and pretty much everything has already been said on this thread. Lots of sensible voices on here - thank you!

Just a couple of things. The reason bus drivers are paid less than us is because if a bus develops a defect between stops, they let the passengers off the bus to wait for the next one, and call a mechanic to fix the bus. If a tube train develops a defect between stops then the driver must fix the defect alone, with up to 1000 passengers onboard, potentially in a tunnel with the temperature rising with each minute that goes by. There will also be another tube train stuck in section behind it, with 1000+ passengers onboard and a rising temperature. The controller is shouting down the radio at you to get that train moving. The stress is immense, I'm sweating just thinking about it.

You need to be shit-hot at defect handling, plus safety rules & regs etc. It benefits LU to pay us well as it means that they retain experienced drivers long term (30-40 years is typical). If we were paid 30k then there would be high turnover as people would leave to do more interesting and satisfying things. New drivers have far more safety related incidents and that is not good for reliability or safety.

The issue of females to males is interesting. At my depot we have around 55 drivers and 5 of us are ladies. At my old depot we had around 175 drivers and 25 were ladies. I worked on stations and I applied for the job when pregnant as I needed the money. I went along to a 'women's day' which was designed to encourage women working in TFL to apply for the driver role. The event was well attended but interestingly all the women I chatted to told me that the drivers role was not for them. After experiencing time on the train they felt it was too dirty, too noisy, the defect handling was too technical for them etc. I think the biggest concern for them was worry about dealing with drunks (understandably, I had a bottle thrown at me at christmas among other things).

I appreciate my wage (breadwinner) but it is equivalent, or even less, than what other train drivers earn. I would say that the negative aspects for me are having to deal with suspect packages (I was involved in the 7/7 bombings and I dislike the fact that LU staff are the ones who decide whether bomb squad is required. We are not trained adequately for this) plus there seems to be a recent rise in domestic incidents/arguments between couples where the woman will seek help from me, the driver, when the husband/boyfriend turns violent on the train. I have been involved in two incidents like this where we've been on an isolated platform at a terminus station. I am untrained in domestic violence and I cannot restrain/arrest the man. All I have is a radio where I can send a mayday. It's difficult and dangerous and leads to sleepless nights at times.

Also, YES to toilet issues - I suffer from frequent UTIs as a result. Worst is if there are severe delays - it can take hours to get to a toilet. I've called the controller before to seek info on how long the delays will be as I need a personal needs relief... You get told to cross your legs. If you do need to take an impromptu toilet break somewhere on the line it goes on your holistic record and you are interviewed over it.

Sorry - thought of just one more thing. The solitude of the job exacerbates mental health issues. Following a family member's suicide attempt I developed 'intrusive thoughts' which became very oppressive as I was on my own in the dark for hours, no distractions, no one to chat to to take my mind of things. Problems seem ten times worse on the front of a train. I remember that the Baby P case was in the news during that time and I began to fixate on it, I would call my husband when on my meal break and cry and cry. My GP would have prescribed meds but I would have lost my job as you are not allowed to be on anti-Ds while driving a train. I've had to learn to manage my intrusive thoughts via counselling.
I also developed severe psoriasis at around that time, which my doctor attributes to the stress of my shift work job. The fellas at work call me Snow Globe because I leave so much skin on the train cab seat!

ayeamerok

It's difficult to understand because you clearly have no idea what you are speaking about with regards to nurses pay. Police and social work sakary is much higher than a nurses salary so not comparable at all. Look it up. Paramedics are on the same pay scale as nurses but somehow nurses are better off than them?

I actually agree with the tube drivers stance here, but they are a hell of a lot better off than nurses, who are paid and treated disgustingly by the government. Little they can do about it though, they can't strike so are at the mercy of their 'union' and a public who make presumptions! Not sure how the comparison came about but what you said is not accurate