Tube drivers and their pay

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It makes me angry.... Surely tube drivers are paid far, far more than jobs with equivalent levels of responsibility, and they only get away with it because they can hold London to ransom... Do they have no shame!?

"[...] have carved out a nice niche for themselves"

Good, join them if you can and if you are so envious. Why not become a hedge fund manager. No training, niche job, no-one clever enough that you can be accountable to, billions of ££, you don't go to jail if you're found out to be incompetent. Feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. But no-one's stopping you having opinions.

I have lost count of the number of times I have read on MN about earnings in London and how a 50k salary does not get you far at all but when it comes to Tube Drivers..how very dare they?? And not a sniff of a degree education at all! So social mobility only ok if you go and get a degree first??

Going back to people with GCSEs earning less than people with degrees. Isn't that the rationale for people paying for their education these days? Because people that are better educated earn more?

Or should teenagers just say 'forget it, I'll not bother getting myself into horrific levels of debt by training to be a nurse/doctor/engineer/teacher because people with education up to the age of 16 only should be paid as much as those that have studied for an extra ten years'

It's not that they have a strong union, it's that they have a job with the most impact to a large number of people. I have a bit more sympathy with this strike because it isn't about just pay (this time), but they have done themselves no favours in the past. It has come across basically as an abuse of their ability to disrupt other people's lives.

Try telling a social worker that if they want better conditions they just need a strong union, willing to go on strike. Yeh right. No one would care. (Apart from those who need their help, but no one's going to listen to them).

The pay tube drivers get is in no way related to the skills, responsibility or other supposed aspects of the job. They only get the pay they do because of the disruption they can cause when they strike.

They work in a capitalist society and get paid what they do. Market forces and all that.

Now Margo I'm not sure that's entirely true. They occupy a sector which is very protected from true market forces and competition by state rules and by heavy unionisation. People who work in jobs subject to real market forces have their terms and conditions changed all the time, or their places of work (standard clause in many employment contracts).

If, for some reason, the same workers had to go out and look for work on the open market, using their current qualifications and experience in the same way any other job applicant would do, do you think they would find it easy to find another job paying so well with such good benefits?

FrankUnderwoodsWife you are talking absolute shit. All train driver applications are internal that is why they are not advertised. You have to join as station staff and get promoted.

The level of ignorance on this thread is astounding.

Yellow curtains - the argument of tuition fees for uni degrees is a separate one. We shouldn't even be talking about it. But look how we are after five years of these shower just accepting it and fighting amongst ourselves. Divide and rule.

The Chandler - I don't know but it's not my problem. Can they be replaced easily by others? No. Hence the pay and the other T&Cs.

Have I misunderstood you? Are you saying the state shouldn't protect workers' rights to strike, for example? That it sjould be to individual employers? Is this Uganda?

Plenty of other unions exist and try and do as much for their members as they can. My partner works in the NHS, and has been on strike from time to time. It is a massive decision because they are putting back people's treatment and the like, and generally speaking they do put patients first. But the number of people affected is relatively few so doesn't have the impact. Tube drivers are in the incredibly powerful position where they affect a lot of people very quickly, but that affect is mere inconvenience, so not much guilt either. Their union has it easy. And it does annoy me (even though I don't live on London or am otherwise affected) because when the public hear of strikes they tend to think of the tube drivers and their high pay etc. It diminishes the support and impact when other far more deserving professions strike.

yellowcurtains you can have a degree and be a Train Driver you know...social mobility entirely dependant on higher education would be a very dangerous thing indeed. FWIW you cant just leave school and be a Tube or Train Driver. I also don't think anyone is saying in effect 16 years should give up on education because they can go out and get a 47k a year job.

yellowcurtains

Uni is a choice. You should not go into thinking ohhhh I'll do this to earn more than those thickos who left school at 16.

You should go into it because you have a passion/talent/interest in your chosen field. If you end up with a 3rd in a useless degree you can't cry because the uneducated oiks are earning more than you. If you choose to work in a low paying field you can't bitch about other peoples life choices.

The amount of people I have met with your attitude makes me sick. They think they are better when usually they have none or very limited social skills/work ethic. But it's ok! They have a shiney peice of paper telling them how clever they are!! They deserve £££££ for that!!!

Of course you do a degree to earn more money! How could you justify the investment otherwise?

whatsthatcomingoverthehill it is not just Tube Drivers striking it is four Unions striking...I think the issue you are talking about ...the lack of public support is more to do with people just accepting flashheadlines from the media without doing their own research and making an educated opinion..jumping to conclusions and generally having snap opinions .

I realise that (but most of the discussion has been about the drivers), and I did say this strike is different because it's about conditions more than pay.

Maybe they're wealthy? Most of us aren't though

I have no problem with high earners who don't have degrees- more power to their elbow- but generally the higher the level of education the higher the wage, that's just the way it is.

ilovecrapcrafts

Nurses?? Midwives?? Do they do thier degrees to earn more money then thier peers? Or do they do it because of passion for the subject.

Should there be a cap on the salaries of gcse/a level students?

I know someone with a masters in interior design who works in Laura Ashley, a degree in physiotherapy who works as a receptionist in a gym and someone with a fine art degree who is a shift supervisor in a fast food chain.

Uni isn't a fast track to the high life. Motivation, work ethic, social skills, common sense, practical knowledge and experience, tenacity, humility, empathy etc etc are vital to get ahead and earn high salaries. A degree is not. The next generation not understanding that is going to be a massive problem imho.

Driver jobs are recruited internally, the majority come from the CSA grade, it isn't a closed shop at all. There have been occasional external recruitment drives but there is a high failure rate involved, a lot of the direct recruits either failing the training programme, or simply not willing to deal with the shifts and pressures on the job when they find out it isn't just 'pushing buttons'.

The 43 days annual leave includes 8 days of bank holidays and 6 days for working an extra hour a week, making it actually 29 days, none of this we actually get to chose when we take it making family life and occasions difficult.

It is so offensive to hear the comments about getting trained monkeys to do the job. What do you think happens when a train breaks down deep underground? That's what our training is for. We are highly trained and reassessed regularly to know we can rectify the train and get it moving to safety. If that train can't be moved who do you think is going to ensure the 630v electricity supply is turned off in the tracks and stays off so we can walk you to safety? We may not have incidents often but we are told we are paid for what we know rather than what we do.
People are talking about the DLR being automated but they fail to mention that each and every DLR train has on board a fully qualified driver on a comparable salary to tube drivers.
There was an incident on the DLR a while back where a lady collapsed and fell off a platform in front of a DLR train, unfortunately there was no driver in front of the train to stop the train.
Should we really just disregard safety just because staff fight for decent working conditions and because it's not fair that drivers get paid more than nurses?

Yes it is unfair that many professions get paid less but does that mean we all have to be dragged down? It's not a race to the bottom. However forgive me if wrong but do police officers and nurses get paid overtime, shift allowances etc, drivers get none of this it's all built into the 50k and we're not allowed to work overtime because of fatigue

I don't disagree with you in the slightest bitchpea, I'm not sure why you're getting so aggressive about my point.

With a degree I can be a nurse, without I could be say..a hairdresser, a receptionist, a shop assistant.

Still earn far more as a nurse wouldn't i? That's my only point.

Well said Daisy

What's all this nonsense about only degree-holding folk being permitted a decent salary in London?

Plus, everyone 50% of people have degrees these days. I bet if you looked at who has been employed as a tube driver in the last 5 years, I reckon a very significant proportion have degrees now too.