Tube drivers and their pay

[Flashbangandgone]

It makes me angry.... Surely tube drivers are paid far, far more than jobs with equivalent levels of responsibility, and they only get away with it because they can hold London to ransom... Do they have no shame!?

Needmorespace - I should start keeping one too! Do you wonder if MN has been invaded by tory activists? What happened to all those clever women?

It's amazing how little respect some people have for others.

Girlfriend - it's NOT the occasional night. How would you like it if Virgin, or whoever employs you now, pissed all over your T&Cs further?

oh and nurses can and do strike btw :)

TTWK - I will arrange for you to be on a tube driven by a chimp if you like. I shall train him or her for a few hours first of course.

Everyone has a right to strike and have their voice heard.
What I think is ridiculous is some people trying to bring everyone down with them and then later complaining that inequality has grown.
From what I've seen, they are complaining about working rotas? If these have changed dramatically since they joined then they have a right to be angry. If it's basically the same conditions one would expect when entering the profession, then they need to grow up !

TTWK very interested to know what makes you such an authority o. Tube drivers and Airplane pilots and their job requirements. Wife of a train driver here (ducks) and some of the technical knowledge that safety knowledge requirements baffle me ...I have a degree there is no.way I could do it and I could not even describe it ..and there is no way I could claim to know the complexities of a Pilot's role. Call me a Chimp if you like...

It isn't even the fact their rotas are changing its the fact they were not given the correct consultation period to discuss the changes and the impacts and so forth.

Margot I think you should - and I think they are almost certainly tories probably not activists though. How fucking dare they denigrate hardworking people for daring to stick up for their rights.

Since the election results and the level of abuse and goadiness on the threads, my eyes were opened widely.

In my workplace there is currently a strong move to change our terms and conditions quite dramatically - to a person we are standing firm on it. I would definitely be striking if I worked for TfL. I applaud them. I think more workers should join unions and take collective action.

God....some of you are so begrudging of someone who earns a decent wage!! Not every job has the same responsibility levels etc...they are most probably paid so highly because of certain risks involved.

My hubby works on a ship as an engineer...he earns over 60k...he's paid for what he knows (what to do in extreme situation) and because of the risks involved also.

It is almost impossible to become a tube driver in London.
It's a closed shop. Fathers/mothers get their children, nieces, nephews etc jobs as tune drivers which is why they all join the union.
You will never see a job as a tube driver advertised.
It's an absolute disgrace.

We had new terms and conditions imposed on us a few years ago and we fought and fought it with the help of the unrecognised union. We came to a compromise that we were happier with, but the hours were still much worse and we ending up "owing" the company a certain number of nights a year which we had to work at some point. Another department had the same thing but had to reapply for their own jobs, had terrible shift patterns implemented and several people had their pay changed for the worst. They hadn't fought or sought union help and had a really awful time of it. We got off lightly in comparison. Thank god for unions I say and it's a shame they are dying out.

I don't work nights right now but I have done in the past and will do shortly. You cannot compare them to working day shifts. The effect on your physical and mental health is considerable, they are hard on family life and when I do them the quality of my work is less because I'm so tired all the time - it's really hard to get good quality sleep working nights. Having terms and conditions changed so you work shitloads more nights is really, really crap and if it was foisted upon me, I would strike too.

Everyone who works shifts should have decent pay and conditions and decent shift patterns which allow for recovery times and quality of life. And that includes nurses and the police. Raise standards, don't bring others down.

And mrs DeVere, I salute you! Bastard government indeed.

My cousin is a tube driver and so was an ex boyfriend. Neither of them knew anyone or were related to anyone who worked as a tube driver.

I found this from an articles interview with a tube driver:

The first four weeks were spent doing theory, followed by 17 weeks of stock training – learning about the trains from the inside out. "The trains on every line are different," says Jiles "The Northern Line trains were introduced in 1995, Jubilee in 1997 and Bakerloo in 1972. You learn every inch of the trains – every switch, every mechanism, so if something goes wrong, you can fix it."

Next came learning to drive the trains. Trainee operators can practise on a simulator (the public can try one out at the Transport Museum in London's Covent Garden), but because the underground system is so busy, there is no opportunity to learn by driving empty vehicles: you go straight from simulator to an in-service train complete with passengers, albeit with an instructor at your side. Jiles points out, with a smile, that the instructor can always press the red emergency button to stop the train if things go wrong.

Trainees have to learn all the signals, all the possible shunts – everything about the line they are working on. This is no mean feat: Golders Green, for example, has about 50 possible shunting positions. Driving lessons last for three months and each trainee has to complete a minimum of 100 hours before taking their test. Every part of the training is examined, and if the trainee fails, he or she goes back to scratch. The driving test alone lasts eight hours.

How many of you still think a chimp can walk in with a few hrs of training and do the job.... yeah right

if their internally advertised people relatives can't apply for them

I doubt very much that TFL are allowed to just ignore employment law

MargoReadbetter

Needmorespace - I should start keeping one too! Do you wonder if MN has been invaded by tory activists? What happened to all those clever women?

And people asked on another thread where I got the impression the left think they're better educated than the right from

they're - ffs!

Two points to make here:

1. When your job entails working certain hours (including unsociable hours) for years, and then someone decides you should do even more unsociable hours, it's not nice. I speak from experience, not as a tube driver, but as a pilot who's company have just tightened up the rules on compulsory overtime. Agreed to do a month of crap work off so you can get your wedding anniversary/child's birthday/whatever at home? Oh, hang on, there's a double night Moscow left over after the rostering process, we'll just plop it on your roster on your days off and there's not much you can do about it. Nice. If what is happening with the Tube drivers is anything like what is happening with pilots atm they will be tired, stressed, and feeling completely out of control of their lives, which isn't really conducive to any kind of a role in a safety-heavy job.

1. Talking of pilots, there's a lot of rubbish being spouted about them here, which just goes to show that people often have a strong opinion on something and can hold forth on the subject in a way which makes them sound like an authority on the matter, without actually knowing that much about it. FWIW, you don't need a degree of any kind, or that big a brain when it comes to maths (I didn't actually do that well at maths not sure anyone's noticed yet though, so don't tell them!) As for the autopilot - oh, how I wish I could show everyone my autopilot so they could understand just how little the autopilot actually does! It holds the aircraft in the heading, height and speed I tell it to, and flies the route I program. It can land in low visibility, but not in high winds, but cannot lower the undercarriage or select the flaps or speed brakes where they are needed. It cannot take off, or make split-second decisions in the case of a sudden failure, e.g. one of the engines swallowing a bird on take-off at maximum take off weight from a hot, high African airport. For that matter, the autopilot can't deduce that your average baggage chief at an African airport has a rather more relaxed idea about 'maximum weight' than you might.

I would imagine that it is much the same for Tube drivers. There are probably all manner of bits of their jobs that the general public don't understand, but are very quick to comment on. Sometimes it is not about the technicalities of the job though - it is about whether you are suddenly having your goalposts moved at very short notice when you are already stretched. Whenever any group with a strong union go on strike over CONDITIONS, the first thing people comment on is usually their PAY. They are not the same thing, but make up different aspects of the contract between you and your employer. I see no problem with people going on strike to prevent a significant deterioration in their working conditions and rostering. It can be exhausting, working a constantly changing schedule with little consideration by the employer other than whether it is legal and whether they can get away with it.

Frank how do you know that?? I only ask because I have heard people saying similar things about rail train drivers but my Dh and many he trained with were 'off the street' as it were with no links to the rail industry at all..the rest were ex guards so within the industry some safety knowledge all of them had to pass the required tests at the required rate though....??

And for those who stated its just pushing a lever here is some useful information to tell you what else they do:

Understanding the responsibilities of a train driver is very important. There are many different things for which a driver is responsible, and they are all vital. You will have to ensure that the train is in good working order before leaving. You also have to know the route you will follow and coordinate with the control centre. During the course of a trip, you will have to learn about delays and problems ahead, plan for these and make your passengers aware of them, as well. You will also need to understand current track conditions and weather conditions, as well as how these will affect travel. You will need to follow signals and safety regulations at all times, keep the train under control and at the correct speed, and make announcements to passengers.

Other responsibilities of drivers include opening automatic doors at stations, understanding emergency procedures, adhering to restrictions at all times, stopping the train at the correct locations, adhering to the correct schedule, and more. You will need to alert your relief driver to any problems, accidents or hazards, keep a record of any problems encountered, record delays that affect service and alert the control centre to hazards you might encounter on your route.

I wonder why TFL advertise the jobs internally - you think it would be in their interests to bring in some fresh blood!

As well as the 'classroom-based' stuff drivers also have to learn the different traction types, learn the routes and carry out ongoing (and never ending) assessments. It's neither 5.5months training, nor is it simply identifying red and green!

sunshine I appreciate those responsibilities, but frankly none of them are as complex as flying a plane, hence the huge disparity in qualification and training time.