Left wing dialogue

[TrueBlueYorkshire]

As someone who has worked all over the world and is interested in politics I just wanted to see if I am only one who finds the language of the left tiring.

To give you an allusion of the type of language i mean below are two prime examples:

1. Taking the most extreme view and expressing it as if it is common.
2. Denying that people should show personal responsibility (this quite often goes hand in hand with point number 1).

I just find the language instantly de-rails any sort of constructive conversation regarding policy into a haves vs have-nots type argument which puts most people on the defensive. While people on the right are having sensible arguments with each other regarding society; in general people I talk to on the left seem to be in their own little world.

AIBU to think this sort of language is all to common from the left and it is what is isolating them?

And yes, sabbaticals are a good idea in my view, but if they are to be taken then they need to be taken through a lens of responsibility rather than just rights

With the citizen's wage there has never been a suggestion that people wouldn't also get housing benefit or disability benefit. It was designed to replace JSA/tax credits/sickness benefit - income related benefits basically. If you read about it.

It's not unfair for people to get wound up when you entirely redefine an established concept so that you can continue to disagree with it. It's not unfair because if you disagree with the established concept that would be one thing but redefining it and disagreeing with that is an entirely irrelevant thing to do unless you are being ignorant and goady.

Most of the socialists on here appear in no mood to compromise or consider any weaknesses in their position.... It's all attack, attack, to anyone who questions their worldview, assuming that they are all baby-eating monsters who gloat at suffering of others, especially the 'poor'.... They seem to have a religious certainty in the rightness (left ness!) their views, If this is the typical attitude, I wonder if this is why regimes that have attempted socialism always, always end up as deluded dictatorships?

Responsibility is generally up to people's consciences anyway.

I've seen some awful things at CAB including a young man who was sanctioned because he failed to attend his last JSA appointment because he had started a new job leaving him with no money for food/gas/electricity or getting to work...

No, I'm pointing out how your criticism doesn't apply because you are refusing to understand the basic concepts of an established idea and criticising something which has never been proposed based on your prejudice but don't let that stop you being smug and superior.

No one said anything about 'getting all your needs met'. No one said anything about not having to work for 'housing, clothes and food'. And no one said anything about Utopia. For god's sake.

Isn't that exactly what's being said? You get a citizen's wage (and other benefits as requires for housing etc.) for being a citizen whether you work or not.... I accept most people probably would do some kind of work as they are not skivers, but they wouldn't have to, because housing, food, clothing are the right of all citizens!

I've seen some awful things at CAB including a young man who was sanctioned because he failed to attend his last JSA appointment because he had started a new job leaving him with no money for food/gas/electricity or getting to work...

I agree, on the face of it that sounds completely unfair.... But your argument appears to be that because of cases like this, JSA should never be stopped (something you were clear about in a previous post)

Offred, I refer you to Electrocute's post defining the CW:

"A citizens income, would effectively replace the vast majority of the benefits system as it now stands. There would probably have to be some extra payment for disability (ie for those who cannot work) "

That suggests it includes housing benefit to me.

No, my argument is that because of human decency and for the productivity of the economy JSA should never be stopped.

Electracute did not imply that. She was talking about income benefits.

Does your employer get to stop your wage for weeks because you have a day off?

Just feels a bit like "I'm going to tell you what you think and why what you think is wrong" I don't get why anyone would think that is a dialogue. Might as well shut your whole brain off and get in a lather on your own in your bedroom...

Can see the whole thing being reported as "hey I was on MN the other day and these crazy left wingers were proposing people get paid a full living wage for doing nothing! Fucking crazy socialists..."

"Electracute did not imply that. She was talking about income benefits."

Oh ffs, how should I know she was talking about income benefits... She said 'vast majority of benefits' and finished by saying there would probably be additional benefits for disability.'

I accept you don't agree with me, but the fact you can't admit a mistake when it's staring you in the face, and you insist calling 'black', 'White' is telling.

Can see the whole thing being reported as "hey I was on MN the other day and these crazy left wingers were proposing people get paid a full living wage for doing nothing! Fucking crazy socialists..."

Until I got into this 'debate' I didn't think people actually thought that, but it's clear that you do, even if you can't quite bring yourself to say it.

In your society, it's clear from all the comments on here someone sitting on their arse all day would receive citizen's wage, and all the housing and other allowances befitting their situation. If I'm wrong, then I'd be happy to hear it, but if that's the case, which benefit are you going to stop first?

You would know if you, as has been suggested many times, read about the established concept of the citizen's wage on the internet. But you can't be bothered.

No, that isn't what I think and it isn't what anyone has said. RTFT. If deciding other people are saying something they are not helps you maintain that your beliefs are.the.reasonable.ones no-one can prevent you doing that. I just think it's ironic you would do that on a thread which was started to dismiss left wing dialogue as ignorant and dismissive towards right wing views.

Anyway, I'm off out wine tasting in Sonoma today, how nice...

Aargh!! I wrote "The CW would be topped up via housing and other benefits.... ", then got told my understanding was wrong and that the CW included the majority of benefits by Electracute, then you berate me for my misunderstanding! Why can't you ever admit you may have made a mistake!

Ps. Enjoy your wine-tasting on the taxpayer

Apologies, my last comment about wine-tasting was unfair and unreasonable.

ha! Right into the trap there. The flights were paid for by my parents, the accommodation by the company and the trip as a reward for good work but enjoy your day writing scripts to justify your prejudice!

I'm sorry... Even if it had been paid for from benefits, that's your business and I don't begrudge you some fun.... I was infuriated at how you don't seem to be able to admit any error or holes in your position even when starring you in the face, and vented that anger in appropriately.

PS if I'm not to now think that socialists do plan to pay people a living wage (or equivalent via combination of CW and benefits) you'll need to say how you would cut benefits from someone who did sit on their arse all day.... If you can, we can continue, if not, I will feel justified on thinking socialism is well meaning but crazy.

There comes a point surely when high stress, difficult, high responsibility jobs become not worth doing for a certain salary/take home wage. Not everyone is motivated in the same way, and forcing them to be is I think verging on being a bit malevolent in its lack of understanding of the individuals who make up society.

Didn't Soviet Russia feature a tax system where everyone except the elite in government were paid much the same? ie a surgeon didn't get an awful lot more than a cleaner. I'm not sure about the other Eastern European countries - I wonder what they were like. Were their citizens happy living under those regimes?

I also think, and I wish I had a link, but I am researched to death at the moment, that there was an experiment in a Canadian town or province recently where everyone was paid a living wage, that wasn't that successful and had to be abandoned.

Anyway, I'm quite looking forward to this living wage now. I've been working non-stop since 15, its time I kicked back and let others take the strain (and get the opportunities). And as pointed out, even if I'm not very good at art, I can do a degree in it and then a Masters, and might find myself an undiscovered writer or something!

I have an idea (a rare thing)! What if the living wage, the sabbaticals, the extra funded study, etc were subject to a minimum number of years a person had to spend in work to qualify for a pension?

Obviously much more generous than now. What would you set it at? 10 years? 15 years?

Then, with all the extra opportunities provided by those selfish bastards currently hogging all the more difficult jobs that require hard to obtain qualifications, other people could take over. The selfish bastards could do proper working class jobs instead! That'll teach them!

I have an idea (a rare thing)! What if the living wage, the sabbaticals, the extra funded study, etc were subject to a minimum number of years a person had to spend in work to qualify for a pension?

Nice idea, but these things are rights, not earned privileges... If people want to do a 'difficult' job then they could take it us as some kind of hobby... The income (including the generous benefits and after tax) wouldn't be much different!

...but the left wingers have repeatedly told us that those not currently in highly skilled, well paid positions have excellent motivation and skills, if only given the opportunity. No-one (except me possibly) would skive, so just taking it to its logical conclusion.

In reality, what are the left wingers thoughts on what does seem to be a growing problem? I don't know if its been quantified anywhere, or whether there is a study on it. But I know an awful lot of people in their twenties and thirties who have plenty of opportunity but choose not to work, or give up their perfectly decent jobs. I know one lovely man who did this last year, as he simply refuses to do things he doesn't enjoy. He fills his time with pleasant hobbies but has no money. Mid thirties. One of many examples.

How would you motivate someone like him? His hobbies are not suited to making a job out of, and he refuses to be tied down to an actual job anyway.

Chandler -when I was growing up there is NO way when I was living at home and young that I gave up one job without another one to go to. I just wouldn't be allowed to!

Yet, now there is a sense of entitlement that you have to do a job you enjoy. Even if you have little in the way of qualifications or experience. It's your right to have something you enjoy. If you don't like your job then your parents will support you whilst you are looking or the state...