or is DS1 a selfish arse?

[MarkRuffaloCrumble]

Having a little weekend lie-in this morning, with DS2 and DD perched on my bed chatting. I asked DS2 and DD if one of them would like to be so kind as to bring me a cup of tea in bed, which they often do.

DS2 (aged 10) rushed off and made me tea but said the cup was too hot to carry up. (He hasn't ever had a problem with this before, but maybe it was fuller than usual or something?)

I suggested that DS1 (aged 15) could carry it up. DS1 refused point blank, he hates helping me the smell of tea, thinks it gross and won't go near it, he said that if he carries it up the next think I'll be asking him to actually make it and there's no way he's doing that etc.

I asked if he expected a lift to his GF's house as usual today. He said yes, and so I replied that he wouldn't be getting one as he was so unwilling to help me.

He kicked off about how ridiculous I was being, was generally rude and obnoxious, carried on shouting, so I told him to leave my room, forget it and shut the door.

15 mins later I wander down to make myself tea and asked DS2 where the cup was. Turns out DS1 has brought it upstairs and left in on the landing without bothering to tell me it's there.

So now he expects a lift, as he DID bring it up. I refused as it seemed like he had done the bare minimum to ensure he got his way, but I still didn't get my tea!

So AIBU not to bother giving him a lift? BTW, DS2 lent him £3 for a bus, which also annoyed me as I know he won't bother paying DS2 back.

Mrs gently I hadn't seen a lot of your other posts, bad GPRS signal and ended up posting itself half hour later! But I stand by what I said - as you have mentioned it I will tell you I have an 18 year old who is now lovely but at that age was incredibly challenging due to all kinds of issues, some I knew about, some I didn't, and refusing to make a cup of tea would have been very minor compared to other stuff that was going on. But I do know about picking battles, and it doesn't mean every bit of rudeness can be attributed to, and excused by those other, bigger issues, what the ds did wasn't the crime of the century but I think the response by the parent was proportionate. I do agree with a lot of what you have said in your later posts, but I also don't think the op ibu.

That's fair enough metal - it possibly did come over rather too harshly in my first post compared to the wider context of what I followed with. I knew it would be unpopular to suggest a simple cup of tea isn't something you should expect to have. I'm coming from two points of views - being the teen who resented doing it, and having to look after an ungrateful sod who makes you want to tear your hair out, where the smallest bloody thing becomes another war. I guess there will be that one small thing that makes you crack and say - 'I'm not giving in this time'.

It's difficult, when you are in 'that place' to step back, and see how you can change the whole situation. Being right in the middle of it makes it seem endless, you'll always be someone's mother/parent, and they can't even do one thing for you. There's an end to it though, it won't happen over night, but we all get there eventually.

Please don't put a label on him when it's normal shitty teenage behaviour- it's nothing like ODD.

If he hadn't sold the bike he could have cycled.

Age 15 was definitely a low point with DS1. However, it was a slow upward climb from 16 onwards and now at 21, he is the most charming and thoughtful young man you could ever wish to meet.

I hope you find the same, OP.

I'd agree it's normal teenage behaviour. But it's also normal parent behaviour to say this is not acceptable and to impose consequences.

It's how we all learnt to stop being horrible teenagers and understand that unless we behaved nicely to the people around us, they weren't going to be nice to us . . .

Yes - my DS was exactly like this at 15 and now he is charming at 22. Do you know any of his friends' Mums? Teenagers are often just like Kevin And Perry at this age - their friends' Mums tell you what a delightful polite son you've got and you literally can't recognise the person they are talking about - but hearing about this person from others made me hope that he was actually learning something from the seemingly endless and hopeless battles. Hang on in there - focus on doing what you think is right not on how he is reacting. And let him know you love him.

I believe boys have to make a break from their DM at this age to become independent men (or some such). So his behavior is normal. But I used to repeat to myself 'never give in' 'never give in' 'never give in'

In fact I used to say this to myself when DDs or DSs were toddlers and tantrumming on the floor of the supermarket.

Don't be shamed/ coerced/ pestered into giving in if you have stated a punishment or response to their rude or selfish behavior.

I really believed and still believe you are doing them a favour by standing firm. They did something, you think they should therefore have this result, and you carry it through. Because you are a wise adult, not a wimp. How can they respect you otherwise?

I think 'that there are only 3 people he feels comfortable with, his dad, his GF and his best mate. Everyone else makes him feel uncomfortable'
was a bit of him making the break from you - in fact it sounds like he is testing the waters a bit, wondering how you will react.

But I wouldn't get involved in his relationship with his GF, at least I didn't get involved with DCs g/b friends, but don't know if I should have or not. But they ended up with partners I liked.

I have always found 13 and 14 to be the most confrontational ages with my three (all girls, and the youngest is just about to turn 13).

Youngest currently seems to be trying to convince me how unfair I am to give her a £10 note to pay into her school canteen account via the paying in machines at school. Apparently that is uncool because I can also do it via Parentpay, even though I had no time for that on that particular morning because of getting ready for work.

They can be very stroppy and unyielding at that age. Consistency with the rules and recognising when to just leave them to stew seem key.

Make your own tea Ffs, you really expect a 10 yr old to make your tea?

Damn fucking straight! And so should you, if you want any hope of them not being a totally selfish arse by the time they are teenagers.
I drive them everywhere, buy everything for them, cook for them, clean for them, buy and wash and dry and iron their clothes, provide for them, play with them, read to them, teach them, nurture them, treat them....I do everything for them.....up to a point.

And at some stage they have to start giving a little back, otherwise the message they get is that I am their slave, not a person in my own right, not a valued member of the family. My ten year old loves to make the tea, and plenty of other things. Makes them feel important, sense of accomplishment , and part of the team. They all have chores as well, even the small kids.
I think you're crazy if you don't get them doing stuff early on!

"Make your own tea Ffs, you really expect a 10 yr old to make your tea?

Damn fucking straight!"

This!

And sometimes I'd make him tea. Or his sister would. Or he'd make his sister a cup. Because we're a family! We live together, love each other and look after each other. That's what families do.

Flippin' heck, people! The OP is getting a ridiculously hard time here. I'm assuming she does a hell of a lot for the children, a cup of tea isn't a lot to ask and he's ten, not two. It's important for children to make a worthwhile contribution, teaches them responsibility, gives them self esteem through feeling competent, etc etc. And the fifteen year old is a lazy, entitled grub. You absolutely should not give him a lift to his girlfriend's, OP - if mine is still behaving like that at fifteen I won't be happy. But try to connect with him positively another time, do something together that you both enjoy - he's more likely to want to please you if the relationship is good.

Thank you, it's heartening to hear of all your older teens who have been through it and come out of the other end xx

Every couple of weeks I try to 'clear the history' and start again without the baggage and with good intentions and reasonable expectations. I just feel like my positivity has been thrown back in my face so many times I feel worn down. The bike is a classic example, I wanted to do the right, kind thing and make him happy, but he saw it as weakness to be exploited.

Similarly if I apologise he'll use that as a stick to beat me with next time "remember what happened last time? You ended up apologising, so tomorrow you'll admit you were wrong" etc.

Today he said in a nasty sarcastic tone "I suppose you'll be staging one of your little 'interventions' again" referring to the sit down chat I had with him last time it all blew up.

It's like any positive move I make is seen as another reason not to respect me.

Chicon, he only has one close friend (one of his 3 inner circle!) and I'm sure his mum would say what a delight he is. Her son is also really nice when he's here, but I've also seen him post that he loves her on FB and pics of him playing with his little brother, whereas mine just torments his siblings, so a totally different kettle of fish!

DS has been making me tea (intermittantly) since he was 7 and at 9.5 has started ironing his own tops sometimes.

I'm a bit at the idea of the occasional cup of tea from a child is akin to slavery! Can't imagine what they'd make of DS ironing his own clothes.

And (caveat I don't have teens just a nearly 10 year old he thinks he's a teen) whilst many teenagers may go through a rather selfish phase they are doing more peer-bonding than parent-child bonding that doesn;t mean parents should give their child a free pass to behave in as entitled a way as they like.

If DS can cook a meal at 9 (tuna pasta bake rather than haute cuisine) I'm pretty sure a teenager can make their own sandwich.

It's hardly sending any of them down the mines to ask for a cup of tea. Do you know that cheesy country song, No Charge? On phone so I can't do a link but it's the one where the son lists all the chores he's done that day and the amount he wants to be paid for them, and the mother responds with a list of parental things 'getting up every night with you, no charge, drying your tears, no charge' and so on. Suggest to DS he listens to it on Tidal or wherever the kids go for music now . I'd also echo the idea that he knows he is safe with/supported by you, which is exactly why he can kick off like this.

My 11 year old cleaned the loo today after he'd used it

OP he's kicking up against you, he's so desperate to be grown up, but really isn't able yet, he needs his mum but doesn't want to admit it to himself. You're also the one constant he can kick up against because you're not going to leave him.

Stay constant, don't over punish his behaviour, but don't let him think it's acceptable.

He sees you as weak. The more he dominates you, he gets rewarded with bikes and lifts and you apologising.

After hearing some of your examples I would stop doing everything for him. Let him do his own washing, sandwich making and organise transport. Tell him to get a part time job if he wants money. Give him a roof over his head and food, nothing more.

If he doesn't like that he is welcome to move out.

He's gone beyond selfish teenager and into apprentice cocklodger. Tough love - it will be the best thing for him.

He does sound as if he is going through a really unpleasant phase right now, and I do hope that's all it is because some of the comments he is making sound like they might well have been picked up from his EA father. I'd certainly not accept them from either of my teens, but I do have the full backing of their dad (and vice versa) which obviously makes a big difference.

ds (16) can be thoughtless, and forget the nice things we do for him when he gets a strop on about some perceived wrong. However he is also prepared to listen and to discuss why he reacted how he did and why we behaved how we did in return. We acknowledge that we can get things wrong but we are very clear about our boundaries too.

dd (14) can get massively stroppy (she's generally lovely but can have 'black cloud' days too) but she is rarely too rude, and is usually apologetic when she has calmed down.

They both do chores, pitch in with cleaning the house, cooking etc. They do their own clothes cleaning so we don't have fights about that. For us it's all about clear expectations. If we bounce ds into a chore he will get very narky and uncooperative. If we put the chore on our 'board of doom' and give him a few hours then he will do it with a fairly good will.

I have not rtft in its entirety but some of you are spectacularly missing the point. Parents are not skivvies and if the OP wants her 15 year old to carry something upstairs for her, then he bloody well should. For no other reason than because she asked him too!

And it does kids no harm at all to learn that if you want favours from people, you need to not be a selfish arse. Or they wont be inclined to go out of their way for you.

Treating teenagers as if they have no obligation to help out, is how we get lazy, entitled menchildren who dont pull their weight when they get partners and move out of home.

She only asked him to carry her tea ffs

Thanks lovelies. Board of doom it is!

If I ask him he is always too busy or about to go out etc, so I suppose writing on a list means he can't forget and can fit it in when he's got time.

That's the idea, plus it takes out some of the 'fightiness' of asking. Leaving a list is more neutral, and allows the child to have more control. Oh and make sure you let them know the deadline/when you will be home. ds often leaves his chores to the last minute and then gets peeved if we are home early.

This summer my two will be doing the house cleaning and supper prep Mon-Fri except when they have activities. In return we will be paying for the activities. It will take about an hour out of their days of leisure.

You need to talk to him in a concise way or he will quickly stop listening and be matter-of-fact and unemotional. Refuse to listen to him if he is being downright nasty or using language that offends you or if he's going over the same ground for the sake of prolonging an argument. Don't get drawn into arguments. (easier said than done of course)

Compliment him wherever possible on anything and ask him about his life and his opinions so that you don't get into a situation where the bulk of your conversations are arguing.

Love bombing?

How can you make him feel secure without being a pushover?

Also you need to stop seeing him as a copy of his dad. He is himself and a separate person.