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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sex ed - shaving legs in year 5

700 replies

Candycoco · 02/07/2015 23:24

Have posted in education but posting here for traffic.

Dd came home from school today having had sex ed at school for the past 2 days.

I've always been very open with her and have answered questions as they've come up, so no big revelations this week.

However, she told me today that the boys were taught how to shave by male teacher, and girls were taught how to shave their legs. This just doesn't sit right with me. I know 99% of women do shave their legs and it's something I've already talked to dd about as she asked me last year about it and I told her she has to wait til end of year 6 before she starts secondary to do it.

I just feel it's a bit presumptuous and suggests all girls should. Maybe I'm being bit uptight about it but I don't like the message it sends. Is this normal to teach this as park of sex ed?

Thanks

OP posts:
rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:15

A desire to beautify yourself has been identified in ancient humans...

rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:17

A desire to make music has also been identified. As has a desire or even compulsion to fit in with your tribe.

LassUnparalleled · 09/07/2015 23:18

There has always been a desire to beautify.

cailindana · 09/07/2015 23:18

That's true rabbit, but standards of beauty change and are usually more onerous and difficult for women, which is what I object to.

rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:19

Wanting to be allowed to go against the flow seems to be a more recent development in our evolution.

Catsize · 09/07/2015 23:21

recreational sex rabbit

It gets better...

cailindana · 09/07/2015 23:22

Do you think it's a bad thing to want to 'go against the flow' rabbit?

rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:28

No, not if you want to. As I say, picking on shaving is entirely the wrong battle if you want to make out that women have a harder time than men, because a majority of women think their legs look more appealing shaved and leg shaving is less effort than face shaving, so men don't have that one any easier. Don't get me started on bloody silly, impractical women's shoes, though. I will not hurt myself for the sake of "beauty". Grin

rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:29

And, a bit like sex, leg shaving shouldn't hurt...

rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:29

Although I guess some people...

cailindana · 09/07/2015 23:32

I'm not picking on shaving in order to make out women have it harder than men. Shaving is a small part of an overall culture that places pressure on women to look a certain way. The fact that men find shaving their faces hard doesn't concern me, not everything I think about has to use men as a reference point.

rabbitstew · 09/07/2015 23:35

Women look all sorts of different ways to me. Leg shaving is a rare area of almost universal agreement.Grin

cailindana · 09/07/2015 23:36

Fair enough. I must go to sleep, goodnight!

mathanxiety · 09/07/2015 23:43

I see no reason why they shouldn't be, especially if sex ed isn't a once off class and there are sessions as teens get older. But that was not my point.

You think condom use is a necessary part of sex ed, but there are those who think condom use is not. Both parties, you and them alike, have your own idea of what should constitute sex ed or the class colloquially known as sex ed, based on your own understanding of normality. My point is that I do not think the constituent elements of sex ed should necessarily be determined according to whatever a certain group thinks of as normal. Answering FAQs and questions that crop up on the spot, whatever they may be, is probably a good way to go.

My own DS and DDs had separate programmes in their high school, taught at PE and separately from 'Health' (which covered the mechanics of sex of various kinds, as well as self care, importance of hygiene, visiting the dentist and doctor for checkups, eating a healthy diet, getting enough sleep, preventing stds, not doing drugs or drinking, etc.) The PE programme was designed by a local women's shelter and counselling centre. For boys the programme was about self control, avoiding getting sucked into behaviour that is destructive, self destructive and disrespectful of themselves and of girls and women, and was supposed to challenge any definitions of masculinity that involved violence or controlling and domineering behaviour, asking boys to examine what was at the root of any desire they had to engage in that sort of behaviour. For girls, there was a strong component designed to counteract the idea that they have to put up with crap from males, that their purpose in life is to attract and hold onto a male, that their value lies in their reproductive capacity and ability to hold onto a male, and to try to get them to always look out for their own best interests, including their capacity to earn a living through working in school and not getting distracted by relationships. There was a self defence component too. I think it was a great programme. I have probably described it badly.

I don't look at legs or armpits much. I see plenty of women as I swim, but honestly I do not notice whether their legs are shaved. Armpits maybe, but only if they are sporting a lot of dark hair there. The changing rooms are communal and without cubicles, and there are showers, but it's a bit like the train you do not look directly at other people in such a situation. Boyshort-style swimming attire seems to be very much in favour where I am so I have no idea how much trimming of pubic hair may go on. Where work goes, women generally have at least shaved as far as their skirts go but then again they may just not have hairy legs to begin with; my mother would be in that category and there are some ethnic groups who have little or no body hair -- and I have no idea about armpits. Many women wear trousers to work too, so you would have no idea what was underneath. I assume those who shave their legs for work do so because they have an idea about grooming themselves suitably for work. Some men shave facial hair for the same reason. In some jobs or professions, it seems that stubble, beards and moustaches on men convey the wrong message or are in some way unacceptable. Lawyers in my experience tend to be clean shaven, for instance.

Workplace grooming especially when it comes to curly hair is a question that interests me as a woman whose hair (on my head) is very curly. Very curly hair if worn long is seen by some as 'unprofessional'. Same goes for Afro hair, or hair that is styled in African braids or dreadlocks. It is maybe a topic for a different thread though.

Lurkedforever1 · 09/07/2015 23:49

cailia I didn't say your children wouldn't, I said less likely. Because I'm making the assumption that your general views here also form part of your attitude/ behavior in daily life, I know mine do. And as we've already established, you see issues where I don't, so you are more likely to project those issues onto your child. Where my child might say I want to shave my legs or pluck my eyebrows and my response would be ok then, because I don't see an issue, I believe you'd want to debate why because you do see an issue. Same as if at 11 my dd expressed a desire to wear 4" heels, I see that as an issue so I'd want to discuss it rather than agree like I do with none issues. Hence the reason with heels her decision to wear them or not wouldn't be her own because I'd have heavily influenced her

cailindana · 10/07/2015 00:03

Sucked back in...Lurked your attitude that shaving is a non issue is still an attitude and one that your daughter will have picked up on. She will have seen you shaving regularly without questioning it and that will have influenced her, same as my questioning it may influence my children. It's similar to meat eating/vegetarianism. A vegetarian is going against the meat-eating norm and so may talk about why that is with their children, thus influencing them to also be a vegetarian or reject it. But just because a meat eating family is going with the norm doesn't mean they have no influence, they are still putting across a message even if they never discuss it.

LassUnparalleled · 10/07/2015 00:17

And as we've already established, you see issues where I don't

And where neither I nor Rabbit nor Math do. Why is it so hard to accept we have thought about it and it's just not that big a deal. What more do you want?

Lurkedforever1 · 10/07/2015 00:52

But a child is more likely to take/ be open to a different view on something their parent considers a none issue than they are when they know the parent does consider it an issue. Using the food analogy, my dd would quite openly express an interest in say venison if she fancied it, because we've never discussed it and I don't see it as an issue. But even age 4 wouldn't have brought up the question of trying eggs from caged hens, because even at that age she knew mummy had an issue with the people that collected them, long before i actually started on expanding why I had an issue. And with the meat eating, I've often found the meat eating child from a family that doesn't make any mention of it is far more likely to bring up the subject of becoming vegetarian, than the child brought up in a vegetarian home where the family have an issue with eating meat, is likely to bring up the topic of wanting to eat it. The sheer fact a parent treats something as an issue makes it harder for a child to express a view that may go against their parents.

NinjaLeprechaun · 10/07/2015 03:37

"So do you think schools should cover everything that might be associated with sexuality math - pubic grooming, dildos, etc?"
Probably not when they're ten. If you read my original post, I did mention that my daughter's sex ed class in high school discussed the trend of removing pubic hair.

If you're properly educating children then I don't think any topic should be off limits, otherwise you wind up with ignorant adults.

"Yes, and school is promoting it, which I don't agree with."
I have heard people, word for word, say the same thing about homosexuality and about pre-marital sex. And you still don't understand the comparisons? What you're actually doing is promoting censorship of something because you personally don't agree with it. Why do you get to be the person who decides that?
See my point above about educating children.

"I don't know many women who find hairy legs to be beautiful, and those who do have hairy legs."
My daughter is unreasonably proud of her hairy man legs. Grin
Then again my daughter identifies as Gender Fluid, and the number of fucks she doesn't give about gender norms is many. And even she finds non-hairy legs on women attractive.

As a complete aside, this thread has prompted me to shave my legs for the first time since last summer.

cailindana · 10/07/2015 06:01

I don't want anything more Lass. I understand your viewpoint, but I don't agree with it.

cailindana · 10/07/2015 06:06

I don't get to be the person 'censoring' anything Ninja. I don't consider shaving to be sexual in the way you do. I will bear in mind that you think dildos should be part of sex ed when another thread crops up with a parent horrified that the word 'sex' was uttered around their PFB.

NinjaLeprechaun · 10/07/2015 07:44

"I don't get to be the person 'censoring' anything Ninja."
No you don't. You are, however, trying to be that person.

Nice try attempting to negate my argument by twisting my comments into something meant to be negative. Now I understand why you didn't respond to my post about teaching children not to bully - you don't seem to have a problem with it.

cailindana · 10/07/2015 08:27

I didn't see your question Ninja, but it is very odd to assume I'm ok with children bullying because of that.

cailindana · 10/07/2015 08:29

I also find it odd that so many posters who see shaving as a non issue are willing to defend it so staunchly for so long. I'm willing to argue about because I do see it as important but if you don't see it as important why not just say "it's a non issue" and move on?

Candycoco · 10/07/2015 08:32

Hi it's op here. I have just read through the thread and there's been some really interesting discussions going on. I just wanted to update you with what's happened since I posted.

Given that I'd already explained to dd previously, way before this sex ed lesson that I wanted her to wait another year, until the end of year 6 to remove her leg her. Due to the reasons I stated earlier, I.e. She would struggle with the upkeep, it's normal, she's a child etc. now since this lesson, she has asked me several times of she can shave her legs, or she will say when we are watching TV for example, "oh my legs are so hairy".

She is not being bullied or teased that I am aware of but this discussion at school has done exactly what I feared, it has unnecessarily brought it into the forefront of her mind, when I'd already given her the reasons why she needed to wait and she accepted those wholly as she trusts me as her mother to make the right decisions for her. She tells me one of her friends is now having her legs waxed by her mum since this lesson.

I feel as though the school has undermined me with this as I said upthread kids believe what school says and that if this is being talked about at school then it makes it ok.

I accept that some children don't have these conversations with their parents but I did and I had done a good job of explaining it to her and now she wants to do what school have suggested. Children have to show high levels of compliance at school but this is one thing I didn't want them to use their power of compliance with.

I know children need to make decisions and choices for themselves, which is something I encourage but I believe this is something that needs to be a parental decision not a child's. And children need to be able to trust what their parents say and not be undermined by school. If it had taken place in a discussion around societies expectations of women and just a more thoughtful approach, I wouldn't be half as concerned but it was part of a lesson on personal hygiene and that I cannot agree with.

OP posts: