Sex ed - shaving legs in year 5

[Candycoco]

Have posted in education but posting here for traffic.

Dd came home from school today having had sex ed at school for the past 2 days.

I've always been very open with her and have answered questions as they've come up, so no big revelations this week.

However, she told me today that the boys were taught how to shave by male teacher, and girls were taught how to shave their legs. This just doesn't sit right with me. I know 99% of women do shave their legs and it's something I've already talked to dd about as she asked me last year about it and I told her she has to wait til end of year 6 before she starts secondary to do it.

I just feel it's a bit presumptuous and suggests all girls should. Maybe I'm being bit uptight about it but I don't like the message it sends. Is this normal to teach this as park of sex ed?

Thanks

Menstruation and stds are important issues that school needs to tackle in case parents don't. And yet many parents object to them being tackled by schools. Shaving, however, is an entirely optional activity (at least it should be, but in fact most women shave whether they really want to or not) and so there is no need for schools to tackle it.

Lurked - what if girls want to know how to pluck their eyebrows, or put on make up but their parents won't teach them. Should schools teach that too? It's a question I've asked a lot on this thread and no one has yet answered it.

Is it OK to admit to girls in a lesson that some women shave their legs?

And what do you mean by "teach"? All that appears to have happened in the lesson described by the OP is that the teacher said that some women shave their legs and if you do, you pull the razor upwards. She didn't sit all the girls down with a razor and some shaving foam and teach them how to do it at all. She certainly didn't get them to have a go on themselves. I somehow hugely doubt that she said all women shave their legs, or that all women must shave their legs. She may have said that if you shave your legs and get it wrong, it can really hurt and scar you, so if you have to do it, know how to do it properly, first.

If you have to analyse absolutely everything anyone says of does to the degree you appear to want to, cailindana, nobody would want to teach your children, for fear of saying the wrong thing and having it analysed back at them.

And, no, I wouldn't have a problem in a PSHE class with a teacher answering girls' questions about eyebrow plucking. Or even how to walk in high heels - it might at least spark a discussion on why on earth you would want to wear them, when they hurt your feet and are bad for your back.

Alright, then we're left with whether or not cultural norms are harmful completely outside the bare facts of what that norm is.

If one culture prefers that men shave their faces, and another culture prefers that men don't shave their faces - is the expectation equally damaging, equally benign, or is one culture right while the other one is wrong?

I actually think about what my children are taught rabbit, which I think is pretty basic parenting. Maybe you don't really care about it, that's your prerogative.

Showing someone how to do something is what teaching is. That's what the teacher was doing, using a razor.

I don't think it's the school's place to teach children how to fit in with cultural beauty norms by teaching them eyebrow plucking and walking in heels - I think girls would benefit more from being taught in PSHE about relationships, consent, positive body image etc.

And as for eyebrow plucking - you could discuss whether you want to look surprised all the time, or just remove stray hairs that are going halfway down towards your eyelid and look ugly to you, or whether you are happy with stray hairs coming out of your nose, or ears, or melding into your other eyebrow and would rather never try and remove them, because you think that would be vain and unnecessary. You could discuss whether there is a difference between plucking a couple of stray eyebrow hairs and having a facelift. It's all interesting.

It depends on the context Ninja. Many posters on this thread have said they or their daughters felt ashamed and embarrassed because of their hairy legs. In that case the norm is making children who don't conform to the norm feel awful, in which case I think it is harmful. Do you agree?

I'm sorry, but I don't think a teacher holding a razor is going to make my child think they have to shave their legs, any more than a teacher showing my child a condom is going to make them want to have sex.

And if seeing me do it was the main factor cailin then how do you explain her decision to keep her hair at above shoulder length when mine is very long and her entire life she's heard people compliment it? Or her decision to wear pretty matching underwear, even when she's not getting changed in front of friends when I never do? Or a million other things she goes the opposite way in. I imagine she does these things because it's what she likes and she's exercising free will. There's a lot to be changed about why society pressurises people into doing things they don't actually want but it doesn't help anyone to assume that's always the case.

Ditto rabbit on eyebrows and heels.

Fair enough rabbit. I think the school does have an influence on what children do so I would hope a teacher showing a child how a condom works will have a greater chance of using condoms when needed later on. I think a teacher showing shaving will send the message that this is normal, this is what girls do.

I respect that that's your view Lurked. For my part I think if shaving really was an either/or choice then you'd see a fairly even split of women with hairy legs and women without. That's not my experience. I have never ever seen a woman with hairy legs on tv or in a film.

"In that case the norm is making children who don't conform to the norm feel awful, in which case I think it is harmful."
I think it was also discussed on this thread that "if it wasn't that, it would be something else".

Bullying as normalized behaviour is a completely separate, and much more serious, issue.

I find the attitude that if it wasn't that it would be something else quite disturbing Ninja. I think it's actually our duty as parents and educators to ensure that as much as possible children are ok with their bodies. Teaching them that the shame they feel about their bodies can be remedied by modifying their bodies isn't on, IMO.

I think it's more important to teach our children to know they shouldn't bully other children.

No matter what is or isn't "normal", "usual", "acceptable", or "expected", somebody will always be different. Assuring that they're ok with their own bodies is one thing, assuring that they allow other people the same privilege is another subject entirely.

And still leaves the question about whether you think cultural norms are intrinsically harmful. If not, then what is more harmful about shaving than, for example, allowing girls to wear skirts to school but not boys?

As schools have an influence on what children do, I think it would be quite healthy to have a discussion about walking in high heels and why on earth you would want to do it. It might persuade a few more girls to wear something more sensible!

I'm afraid I don't understand why showing someone a condom makes them more likely to have safe sex, but not more likely to have sex; whereas showing someone a razor makes them both more likely to shave safely and more likely to shave. You don't have to use a condom as you don't have to have sex. You don't have to use a razor as you don't have to shave your legs. Seeing a razor and knowing how messy it can be if you get it wrong might just put you off shaving your legs, just as seeing a condom and learning about the mechanics of sex might just make you want to delay having sex, too (or even put you off altogether, you never know).

NinjaLeprechaun - I don't think boys' hairy legs would look good in skirts.

The problem with your position here on shaving, Cailindana, is that once upon a time homosexual sex was never talked about in sex ed classes, for various reasons including the reason that explaining it, saying how it is done, telling children how to do it safely, 'gives it legitimacy' or 'normalises' it. Presumably those holding this opinion believe that homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle that would not be chosen if nobody knew it was a possibility. The logic goes -- it is a lifestyle that only gets chosen in a certain liberal climate, so create a conservative, very heterosexual climate instead, and everyone will straighten up and fly right.

There are those even today who object to (heterosexual) sex ed on grounds that it encourages children to do it, and those who complain about telling children about contraception because it encourages sex before marriage or sex that is not meant for procreation.

It is similar to assuming that shaving is only chosen in a certain partiarchal environment and because of the malign influence of that partiarchal climate, and assuming that if it wasn't mentioned in school then it wouldn't be seen by girls as a legitimate choice they could make.

*patriarchal.

Let's face it, whoever designed trousers didn't take the male anatomy into consideration.

Math I have to say I find your comparison absolutely mind boggling. Shaving is entirely optional - you can go your whole life without shaving and it will have no physical consequences whatsoever.

To compare that to the way in which people didn't want homosexual sex talked about is frankly weird. The desire not to have homosexual sex talked about was borne out of prejudice and small mindedness. Not talking about it hurt so many people and made them feel like freaks. How is that comparable to not talking about shaving??

Equally talking about contraception/protection is extremely important to protect against stds and unwanted pregnancy. Not talking about it could have terrible life long consequences for children. How is that in any comparable to not talking about shaving??

"And still leaves the question about whether you think cultural norms are intrinsically harmful. If not, then what is more harmful about shaving than, for example, allowing girls to wear skirts to school but not boys?"

No, I don't think cultural norms are intrinsically harmful. Shaving is not more harmful than allowing girls to wear skirts to school but not boys. In fact I think those things are on a par, because having boys clothes and girls clothes even in an uniform says that girls and boys are different - IMO uniform should be uniform across the board. Also we've had a few threads lately where girls have been told to cover up when wearing skirts either by wearing 'modesty shorts' or tights (in the middle of summer!). IMO it is bloody ridiculous to specify an item of uniform and then make girls feel bad because that item of uniform doesn't cover them 'modestly' enough. Get everyone to wear shorts ffs!

"I'm afraid I don't understand why showing someone a condom makes them more likely to have safe sex, but not more likely to have sex; whereas showing someone a razor makes them both more likely to shave safely and more likely to shave. You don't have to use a condom as you don't have to have sex. You don't have to use a razor as you don't have to shave your legs. Seeing a razor and knowing how messy it can be if you get it wrong might just put you off shaving your legs, just as seeing a condom and learning about the mechanics of sex might just make you want to delay having sex, too (or even put you off altogether, you never know)."

Because in one case you're showing something to go with an activity (ie condoms) and in the other case you're showing the actual activity (ie shaving). IMO if you showed children a video that showed them one type of sex (eg oral sex) then they would likely go on and think that's what sex was about and do that more than they would otherwise.

There are many people who call homosexuality a 'lifestyle choice'. They do not believe it is an innate orientation. Homosexual sex is, to them, an option associated with that lifestyle choice.

Contraception is equally seen by many as a choice associated with the 'going to hell in a handcart lifestyle' -- again, an option that goes against nature.

There are groups who want to see an end to sex ed in schools altogether because more is discussed than 'men and women get married and have sex and that is how they have babies and this is all there is to it'.

There are people who think talking about homosexual sex and safe sex for unmarried teenagers and contraception can have terrible and lifelong consequences.

What you want to do is only talk about matters you find obviously sensible and useful. I am pointing out that there are people who put different items in their 'sensible and useful' basket.

I would absolutely not put grooming and sexuality in even in the same ballpark math.

AFAIK, children in the Netherlands (or maybe it's Sweden) are shown how to put a condom onto a penis-shaped form as part of sex ed.

Since babies continue to be born in the Netherlands (or Sweden..) it is possible they eventually figure out that condoms are not necessarily part of sex.

Same goes for shaving, and as seen here there is a wide variety of opinions and practices, even though presumably we all live in the same general culture. As an interesting side note, I think I once read somewhere that women of European extraction in colonial Bolivia used to eschew the shaving of body hair in an effort to distinguish themselves from the generally hairless indigenous women. History does not relate the response of their partners.

Math do you regularly see women on tv with hairy legs? Or women around you with hairy legs, out and about?

But there are some who are asserting that grooming and sexuality are inseparable. Feminists who see shaving of legs and pits as part of the gender prison we live in and assert a woman is a more conscious woman because her legs are hairy, feminists who don't care about shaving and say a woman is no less a free woman because she wants to shave her legs and pits, or people like Sighing who thought a nine year old girl with shaved legs was going to attract pedophiles.

I understand your point, but there are people who disagree with you on fundamental issues of sexuality who would like to see their agenda spread into schools, or would like to see sex ed left entirely to parents, lest certain ideas contaminate impressionable minds. If you are against instruction on shaving ('this is how it's done') on grounds that it contaminates impressionable minds then you share their sense that what goes on in school leaves an indelible impression and should be controlled.

Who gets to control what is being said in schools on this topic? It is perhaps too easy to relax and assume that of course only what is sensible according to your definition of the word gets talked about. But there are places where other views hold sway.