Sex ed - shaving legs in year 5

[Candycoco]

Have posted in education but posting here for traffic.

Dd came home from school today having had sex ed at school for the past 2 days.

I've always been very open with her and have answered questions as they've come up, so no big revelations this week.

However, she told me today that the boys were taught how to shave by male teacher, and girls were taught how to shave their legs. This just doesn't sit right with me. I know 99% of women do shave their legs and it's something I've already talked to dd about as she asked me last year about it and I told her she has to wait til end of year 6 before she starts secondary to do it.

I just feel it's a bit presumptuous and suggests all girls should. Maybe I'm being bit uptight about it but I don't like the message it sends. Is this normal to teach this as park of sex ed?

Thanks

In my view teaching young girls to shave at school is harmful, yes Ninja. Others disagree. Feel free to read the thread to find out why.

Yes, cailidana, I do view myself as a feminist in that respect. I don't think feminism should be about pitching men against women, but about finding a fair balance in society, working together with men as equals. We need men. Men need us. I enjoy male and female company. I react badly to any sense that someone is trying to control me and force me down, whether that person be male or female - I work hard to contribute to the community in which I live and expect to be respected for that, as I respect others for the roles they take on.

I don't think feminism is about pitching women against men either, and I don't know any feminist who does think that.

My yr4 dd shaves her legs (or rather I do it for her)

I'd never taught her about it, it never occurred to me that it would be something that would bother her at this young age. It only came about when she overheard me talking to a relative about shaving.

The boys in her class had been calling her a monkey because of the thick, dark hair on her legs. She started wearing tights or long socks to cover them, no matter how warm it was. I'd just thought this was because she liked to wear tights. She often has odd ideas about what she should wear. She'd never thought to ask about shaving her legs because she didn't know it was something ladies did (I only bother if I'm going out, the rest of the time I live in jeans and trousers)

It upsets me that she struggled for so long trying to cover her legs instead of just talking to me, had she not overheard me chatting to my sister this could have gone on for years.

If schools are teaching it in the right way eg worded as something you can do if you chose to, rather than something that is required or expected of women and girls, then I think it's a good thing.

I'm more upset that little boys even notice or care that little girls have hairs on their legs.

cailindana - you've never corresponded with Xenia/LotusLight on mumsnet, then. She views herself as a feminist and makes it quite clear that she views some roles to be inferior to others. She thinks it is a feminist's duty to earn more than her partner. I think that's playing a sexist man's game, not being a feminist.

If a woman happens to earn more than her male partner, that's just fine. If she HAS to earn more than him, that isn't.

I have read the thread, cailin, thank you for your terribly helpful advice.
As far as I can see, your main objection to it is that it teaches girls (but apparently not boys) that they have to conform to cultural norms - something that we've established is not harmful in and of itself. This is far from the only 'cultural norm' that they will be taught at school, either directly or indirectly, gendered or otherwise. So what is it that makes this particular one so heinous that children girls should be protected from it?

Boys and girls are equally taught to conform to cultural norms, at no point did I say they weren't.

What makes it particularly heinous is that it is not necessary for a girl tk be taught how to shave and doing so reinforces the idea that it's expected. In a world where women's appearance is scrutinised I am not comfortable with young girls being taught to conform to stereotypical norms of appearance.

Lostmysanity - your situation is the very thing I am concerned about - young girls feeling ashamed and embarrassed and being bullied for their perfectly normal legs. Don't you think that instead of teaching girls how to shave they should teach about accepting our bodies as they are and that bullying is wrong?

I also think it's mildly insulting to assume that in every case it's about a child making a decision for the wrong reasons. My entire discussion with dd about her choice to remove body hair occurred because when she was 7 or so I realised she'd been using the shaving foam, without a razor or attempting to remove hair when in the shower. I very simply reminded her not to play with the razors and told her when or if she wanted to remove any hair I'd show her how. It wasn't till a couple of years after she bothered asking, and I doubt it was anything but her own choice because firstly it wasn't very noticeable, and secondly she tells me anything said by others. And she's not really one for conforming anyway, within the realms of good manners and behavior she tends to go her own way. Infact I suspect if she felt hair removal was something she was being compelled to do she'd be super glueing tons of fake stuff on till she could grow enough to make a point

To add - I don't think the boys should be taught to shave either.

So do you think your daughter came up with the idea of shaving her legs entirely out if the blue with absolutely no outside influence Lurked?

cailindana - do you think we shouldn't cut the hair on our heads, either? Or brush our hair? And when it's really hot, should women and men be allowed to remove all their clothes, or only some of them?

If you actually don't want an incredibly long beard, or a hairy face, or hairy legs, it's quite nice to get some advice from an expert in how to get rid of it. It requires a bit of skill to do it safely and effectively and without making it look messy. I taught my children how to use a knife and fork, too. Should I have left them to eat with their fingers?

I never said women shouldn't shave their legs. In fact I have said multiple times that I don't care if women shave their legs. I've said it over and over so I don't know why you think I'm saying that women shouldn't shave their legs. Why is it that you think I'm saying that?

Where have I said I think you are saying that? You are saying that people shouldn't be taught how to do it properly, though, which strikes me as ridiculous. Why shouldn't you show someone how to do something if they are interested in knowing? And very occasionally, even if they aren't hugely interested in knowing - my children would much rather eat with their fingers.

Or did you not mean that boys and girls shouldn't be taught how to shave (full stop)?

Why are you asking me do you think we shouldn't cut our hair?

I don't think it's the place of schools to teach 9 year old girls how to shave.

Depends what you call influence. She's seen me remove hair myself all her life, so yes to an extent she's conditioned to the fact it's something I do. But with the exception of a few years (which ended before her decision to remove hair) she's never seen me in anything other than a platonic relationship with a male. So while it's arguable she's copying her mum, she's also equally aware that it's something I do regardless of the fact that for most of the time nobody but her would know either way. And while we're alike in many ways, in other ways she's very different and goes the opposite way to what you'd expect if she was copying me.

If you know that a fair proportion of the children in a class would like to be taught how to shave, should you refuse to show them because some of the children in that class aren't interested? Should you inform the children who want to know that they only want to know because of societal expectation and that, therefore, you won't tell them, but they are free to go and try it by themselves and learn from their mistakes?

I'm sure a lot of girls would like to know how to pluck their eyebrows or walk in heels - do you think schools should also teach that? Or how to apply make up?

"What makes it particularly heinous is that it is not necessary for a girl tk be taught how to shave and doing so reinforces the idea that it's expected. In a world where women's appearance is scrutinised I am not comfortable with young girls being taught to conform to stereotypical norms of appearance."
It is expected. That's what cultural norm means. It is not, however, required - and based on the OPs information it wasn't presented as such.

But either way we're right back to debating whether cultural norms are harmful in and of themselves. You seem to be of the opinion that they are, at least where girls are concerned.
Apparently you have no problem with boys being taught to shave - also expected but not required in mainstream culture - which suggests that you think that girls should be exempt from societal conformity in a way that boys aren't.

Although, admittedly, society is much crueler to boys who don't conform to gender expectations than it is to nonconformist girls, so you might have a point there.

I would call your DD seeing her mother shave influence yes Lurked.

"But either way we're right back to debating whether cultural norms are harmful in and of themselves. You seem to be of the opinion that they are, at least where girls are concerned.
Apparently you have no problem with boys being taught to shave - also expected but not required in mainstream culture - which suggests that you think that girls should be exempt from societal conformity in a way that boys aren't."

If you read my posts Ninja you will see I again said MULTIPLE TIMES again and and again that I don't think the boys should be taught by the school how to shave either. I don't know why my posts are so hard to read but people seem to be reading stuff that's entirely not there.

And I agree in an ideal world schools shouldn't be teaching about shaving. But it's something most kids want to discuss at some point and not every child comes from a home either interested or open minded enough to discuss it at home so it's a practical solution. Same as menstruation, sex, stds etc

I at no point ever said that girls should be exempt from cultural conformity in a way that boys aren't. In fact, if you read my actual posts, you will see that I said both girls and boys are equally influenced by cultural norms but the norms they are subject to differ.