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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

540 replies

karbonfootprint · 24/06/2015 18:38

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

OP posts:
PyjamasLlamas · 26/06/2015 23:16

Oh I'm sorry 'renunciation of faith'. Is that ok now?

Eebahgum · 26/06/2015 23:16

Genuine question - although I fear I might get flamed - Does "islamaphobic" mean racist or scared? I'm bloody scared every time I see stuff like this on the news. Does that make me islamaphobic? To clarify, I'm not scared of Muslims in general - just the nutters who commit atrocities in the name of their religion.

PyjamasLlamas · 26/06/2015 23:16

What are you talking about buried. It's just a word

manicinsomniac · 26/06/2015 23:20

TANBU

Thinking Islam is ridiculous/a load of bs/mysoginistic/homophobic/violent etc is not Islamaphobia. That's personal opinion and is fine in my opinion. (or at least as fine as having the same attitude towards Christianity or any other religion is)

Islamaphobia is thinking that Muslim individuals have no right to be in 'our' country or shouldn't be wearing the hijab because 'it could be anybody under there' . Islamaphobia is not getting on a bus with a Muslim because you think they'll blow it up or protesting outside a mosque for ordinary muslims to be deported. Islamaphobia is not wanting your children to be friends with Muslim children, thinking all Muslim immigrants should be forced to speak English and live in a culturally English way or thinking that all the Muslims in the world share one thought pattern and belief system.

Thereyouarepeter · 26/06/2015 23:22

Well it's not just a word in some parts of the world pyjamas...it's a demonstrable death sentence.

MistressMia · 26/06/2015 23:22

No one gives a shit about them only about France and Tunisia ....the Shia mosque bombings have been in the news as have the massacre of 120 or so muslim Kurdish villagers.

Obviously there will be more focus on people in the UK about people who they have a closer affinity to e.g. British / European holiday makers in Tunisia, just like muslims seem to when its muslims being killed.

The thing is muslims have been killing other muslims for decades (actually centuries) now. Not a single protest by muslims like you when the almost weekly bombing of Shia mosques occur in Pakistan, or of the persecution of Ahmadiyas, or against Saddam's killing sprees, the Talibans, the Ayatollahs and all the other numerous blood thirsty muslim zealots.

My agenda, if I have one, is to confront injustice, inequality and hatred. Things that are all rife within Islam. There are many other things I am passionate about - animals being one of them. In fact improving animal welfare ranks higher on my list of concerns than Islam.

And for what its worth I am hugely supportive of reformist and secular muslims, many of whom are also being killed by Islamic fanatics.

If Islam is nullified to being a benign faith focussed simply on matters personal and spiritual, then I have no problem with it. Pray 7 times a day or fast for a whole year - I couldn't give a stuff. However while it continues to subjugate women and minorities and causes mayhem around the world, then I will continue to decry and denounce it.

OTheHugeManatee · 26/06/2015 23:27

I think challenging an ideology that seriously considers apostasy to be a thing is a higher priority than challenging objections to Islam.

I 100% agree that a dislike of Muslims purely for their religion is unpleasant and bigoted. But I reserve the right to dislike Islam as in practice it appears more often than not as anti-democratic, misogynistic, homophobic and alarmingly evangelical.

PyjamasLlamas · 26/06/2015 23:30

Is renunciation of faith a 'thing'? Like being a lapsed catholic or raised christian and never going to church.
I used it as a word for its meaning not because I believe people who leave Islam should be killed. Do am I allowed to say renunciation of faith?

PyjamasLlamas · 26/06/2015 23:32

But according to Mistress Muslims shouldn't mention the very real hatred of Muslims because we are just enforcing our own 'victim' mentality and relishing in it. We only care about Muslim lives and should stop
Moaning about our own persecution. So actually according to some no we should never ever mention Islamaphobja (or Muslim hating whatever) because it's not a real thing, it's not that bad, it's not as shitty as other stuff going on and we kinda deserve it anyway for being such idiots for following Islam

DioneTheDiabolist · 26/06/2015 23:33

Eebah, it is not Islamophobic to be frightened of bombs or "nutters who commit atrocities". It is entirely rational to fear people or things that would harm us. I think it's only Islamophobia if you start to fear/mistrust/despise/ridicule people who share a characteristic (religion) with those people.

OTheHugeManatee · 26/06/2015 23:34

Sure. But there are people who seriously believe people who renounce Islam should be killed, aren't there?

PyjamasLlamas · 26/06/2015 23:36

Yes

AyMamita · 26/06/2015 23:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gemauve · 26/06/2015 23:42

What are you talking about buried. It's just a word

So when Hizb ut Tahrir condemn someone as an apostate, it's just a word? Indeed, when Rushdie was condemned as an apostate, it was just a word? It's regularly used to incite violence. You must, surely, know this.

OTheHugeManatee · 26/06/2015 23:44

My feminism trumps my religious tolerance every time.

And my objection to homophobia.

Andy desire to live in a democracy.

And my desire for religious pluralism.

MistressMia · 26/06/2015 23:47

Pyjamas could you just for a few minutes stop wallowing in self-pity and comment on what to do about the numerous violent passages in the Quran such as the ones I posted above that IS and other extremists use as justification for their murderous rampages.

Don't say 'it's taken out of context'. The leaders of these religious groups whether they are ISIS, Boko, Al-Shabab are frequently religious scholars. Other scholars haven't been able to counteract them so clearly there is a lot of ambiguity. How do you propose that this problem is dealt with ?

OTheHugeManatee · 26/06/2015 23:57

There are many valid objections to Islam as it is commonly practiced in many parts of the world, from the standpoint of Western culture. This is not the same as objecting to individuals who practice Islam purely on the basis of their religion. the former is an argument ad rem and the latter is an argument ad hominem; ad hominem arguments are always poor and say more about the person making them than the subject being debated. But I object to the way the term 'Islamophobia' elides the difference between philosophical objections to Islam (arguments ad rem ) and bigotry against Muslims (arguments ad hominem ). In doing so it effectively tries to mobilise the well-meaning language of right-on-ness to silence valid debates about whether 'tolerance' is really adequate as a means of reconciling radically competing worldviews, especially when that tolerance seems remarkably one-way.

hiddenhome · 27/06/2015 00:09

If right wing, fundamentalist Christians were behaving this way there'd be a global outcry.

Personally, I think all religion is sinister and frightening because it prevents rational thought Hmm

hiddenhome · 27/06/2015 00:36

Spot the difference between ISIS and the Spanish Inquisition. Perhaps in several hundred years time, ISIS will be as progressive and enlightened as the Catholic Church are now Smile

It's going to be a long wait......

UncertainSmile · 27/06/2015 00:50

MistressMia, as ever, hits the nail firmly on the head.

Splitpeas · 27/06/2015 01:51

Mistress, pyjamas is not responsible for ISIS interpretation of the Quran.

No other muslim is responsible for your apostacy.

You are responsible for your actions.

Isis is responsible for theirs.

Your justifications are flawed.

Isis justifications are flawed.

Before you start asking pyjamas to justify verses, could you briefly outlibe where your own woefully inadequate research of islam comes from?

Don't tell me....the internet!

MistressMia · 27/06/2015 02:04

Illuminating reading from the blog of a Pakistani ex-muslim still living there.

Interview with a Pakistani Ex-Extremist: "Osama Bin Laden Was one of my Heroes." Pt. 1

Interview with an Ex-Extremist: "Osama Bin Laden Was one of my Heroes." Pt. 2

On apostasy
Now, I'm an ex-muslim atheist and my roommate tells me he thinks I should be killed. Others in my class who are pro-Taliban and pro-Hamas also think this. I don't know about the intentions of other classmates, but my roommate still wants to join Hamas. I don't know if my friendship with him is more important to him than his religion - which requires him to kill apostates like me, and I don't want to know the answer either.

In the beginning, I used to stay up late to make sure my roommate fell asleep before going to bed myself and I would wake up earlier than him. After some time, I got tired of being paranoid.

on hatred of non-muslims
Well, as far as I can remember...I have been anti-Semitic and anti-West, anti-non-Muslim in general.
The same narrative was repeated in mosques, at home, in school, in congregations such as weddings, going out with friends etc. Every single one of our problems is blamed on Western imperialism. We are taught in schools about the glorious past of Muslims, "our" victories in wars with infidels.. and our conquests of infidel lands in the past, how division among the Ummah (community) brought about the defeat of Muslims. I was taught that it is the duty of every Muslim to try and recapture that glory. All Muslims must unite and thwart the evil infidels. My father has been an influence on me, I must say. He always mentioned Hitler in adoration of his efforts to rid the world of the source of it's problems - namely Jews. He used to tell me, "Hitler did his best to kill them all, but they still escaped”.

on Jihad
I like to think that my mother wouldn't approve of me indulging in armed Jihad, but perhaps that's just wishful thinking. My father most definitely would urge me on. They have sympathized with Osama Bin Laden. From time to time, they praised his ‘achievements'. They never condemned any of his actions. When he was killed, they were sad, like I was.

on enlightenment
When I found out the Prophet had married a 6-year old, that was the major turning point. No explanation by my parents or Imams made any moral sense. The biggest turning point was when internet connection was installed at home. I initially looked up criticism on Muhammad marrying a six-year old, then I began reading a lot of criticism on Islam, listened to lectures by Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins. They set me free.

on Islamically endorsed child marriage
What do you say to those who say the age of Muhammad's bride was not 6?

Muslims who argue that Ayesha's age was not 6 when she got married desperately want to believe that the best example to live life by was not someone who married a child. This is understandable. The evidence is largely to the contrary though.

If these Muslims can convince 1.6 billion Muslims with their evidence, then kudos to them. They should be working towards convincing other Muslims who justify child marriages because they believe Muhammad did it.

Clearly, these Muslims are not convincing enough or there's insufficient evidence for their viewpoint. If they were, we would be seeing fatwas everywhere in the Muslim world banning child marriage. They can try and make themselves feel better about their beliefs, but they ought to try and convince the rest of the Muslim world with whatever evidence they have for this assertion, that Muhammad's child bride was not actually a child.

on Western feminists support for veiling
What are your thoughts about women, especially in the West that seem to advocate for burqas as some sort of feminist tool of bodily autonomy?

Some ‘feminists' in the West are ignorant. That's the only word for them. They have never experienced what it's like to be discriminated against conservative-orthodox Muslim-style: they are not considered immoral sluts by society for just showing their face in public.

Ask them to live like that for a month and I guarantee they'll change their mind about the burqa. If only they knew what it's like being shamed for having a face in public, for showing your wrists in public, for showing your feet in public, they'd shudder at the thought of supporting the burqa.

on Tableeghi Jamaat (whose UK headquarters are in Dewsbury)
My university is a regular one, but has a very conservative environment, with "Tableeghi jamaats” (evangelicals) quite active. They knock on your door and invite you to come to the mosque. I've only met one non-Muslim, a Hindu studying in my university. We Muslims made life hell for him here, discriminating at every chance we got. Nobody greeted him, because here it is believed that Muslims aren't allowed to say "assalamu alaikum” (May you be blessed) to non-Muslims. The guards at the university gates harassed him the most.

on Western Foreign Policy
Secondly, something must be done to inform people that all of our problems are NOT the fault of Western foreign policy. A more detailed and nuanced education of the masses about the history of Muslim countries and especially the Middle East is required for that.

Hatred of the West gives credence to theological grievances…and religious solidarity among Muslims increases hatred of the West. It's circular, and the circle is spinning faster and faster as days go on. It's only going to get worse, if we don't do anything about it.

on reforming Islam
My message to moderate Muslims is this: please don't be afraid of admitting that part of your theology is not applicable today as it was 1400 years ago. It takes courage to admit that. You must accept that some teachings of your religion are unacceptable within the context of the 21st century, especially the teachings that prescribe killing people like me who managed to break away from indoctrination. Rejecting the doctrine altogether is implausible; reinterpretation and contextualization is the only way to move forward.

Splitpeas · 27/06/2015 02:15

mistress, you are not the only renouncer in the village. There are others like you. Many living in muslim countries too. It really isnt a 'brave' thing to do, its just your lifestyle choice. I really couldnt care less that you have renounced islam. And neither does anyone else, apart from your parents maybe, but then again, maybe they don't either, who knows.

The issue I have is the number of half truths and out of context statements you use, It is sooooooo predictable considering you try to portray yourself as well researched without an anti-muslim agenda.

I could get into theology with you and the historical background and context, but I suspect you are not really interested in learning and correcting your flawed knowledge, you just want to attack and push ahead with your agenda and as you can tell, most muslims on here, for that reason, refuse to engage with you on that level.

MistressMia · 27/06/2015 02:53

Before you start asking pyjamas to justify verses, could you briefly outlibe where your own woefully inadequate research of islam comes from?

Sure. Marmaduke Pickthall's translation of the Quran. We had that copy in our house since very young. Was first made to read it as a child, as you are, at Madrassah / home etc. Was commended for finishing the tome by the age of 7. Picked it up again at the age of 20 and actually properly read it.

Didn't understand parts of it so bought further books on tafseer (interpretation) from the Islamic bookshop. All still here on my bookshelf.

Was perplexed and bewildered by the dichotomy between what I thought Islam was and what the texts were saying so delved further and came across Anwar Sheikh's "Why I Am Not a Muslim" .... it factually references all the various authentic Islamic sources and makes balanced cogent arguments. You should read it.

More than happy to have theological debate with you and be 're-educated'. Bit of a cop out isn't it saying that I have a closed mind ?

Shall we start with clarifying Aisha's age. Those accusations of paedophillia must be the most hurtful. Lesser known is his marriage to the wife of his adopted son. Still haven't understood why the command came down instructing his son to divorce his wife so that Muhammed could marry her.

Strange thing for Allah to have spent his time on - a verse specifically to facilitate marriage to your daughter-in-law. This pro-Islam sites doesn't help much either.

www.answering-christianity.com/adopted_sons.htm
According to Noble Verse 33:37 above, we clearly see that Allah Almighty allowed for the Muslims to marry the former wives of their adopted sons!

Just says adopted son is not really a son, therefore all hunky dory. Seems all bit Jeremy Kyle to me. What the hell has any of this got to do with spirituality ?

KoalaKoo · 27/06/2015 03:25

Hold on, are all those that disagree with the op really saying that when they see people snarling in muskim womens faces, spitting, jeering in public, ripping their clotges off, swearing at them for no reason, than this is acceptable human behaviour because some other muslims are terrorists? Thisis what Islamophobia looks like. What a disgusting attitude, and I have to say, very far removed fron the British values that I hold dear.