to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

Although I agree with many posters points lets not wash our hands of all responsibility. Most religions have seen a softening of their adherence to doctrine over tine as they try to keep pace with the moral zeitgeist. Its only been on the last generation where ISLAM has bucked this trend. Children seem to be much less liberal then their parents. Western foreign policy has to take its share of the blame.

As always, MistressMia, an intelligent and rational post. I always look forward to your thoughtful and informed opinion.

Muslimobobia-ie hatred and fear of muslims, however is utterly wrong

Absolutely. And too many people become confused when any critical eye is cast on Islam.

It is a very difficult concept, particularly for liberal Western atheists who have only ever lived in a country that supports free speech, to grasp.

The difficulty of separating Islam the religion from Muslim the believer is faced by many, believers and otherwise.

And until those people can grasp the concept, there will continue to be hysterical reactions and cries of racism and Islamophobia.

1984 makes chilling and pertinent reading on groupthink.

I have an issue with a lot of Muslims shouting islamophobia whenever they are hoping for favourable treatment.

Op Do you have the same concern about the rise in anti-semitism across Europe, and the recent tragic violence in Paris?

I don't understand the right-on determination to defend Islam, when (with the exception of a minority of relatively secular liberal Muslims) its proponents seem so firmly to belong to the religious right.

We had a speaker in my Church recently from Open Doors - Google it. The amount of Christians around the world being persecuted for their faith is unbelievable.

I believe everybody should be able to practice whatever faith they wish but killing people because they have a different faith to yours is not acceptable. I think it is this view that is turning some people into Islamophobics.

But exactly the same thing could be said of Christianity and the core texts etc. If you take Christianity as an ideology you'd be fucking terrified of that as well.

Only we aren't are we? Because in the main it's become an idle religion able to interact with the western ideal and freedoms.

Islam in the people I know is the same. The vast majority of British muslims are perfectly able to rub along with our society. Do we write off them in the search to ban Islam as an ideology?

The whole point of our 2nd generations turning to ISIS et al (which by the way is still a tiny %) is because of the wests interference.

We wanted oil carrying countries unstable, we caused the israel/palestine issue, our media is banging the "we hate Islam" drum.

Had we left the countries where that religion is predominant alone it would probably have naturally felxed snd adapted with time as Christianity has. For example in Morocco where drink is hidden yes, but turned a blind eye to. Where tourism was safe. Equality was growing. But now those fanatical voices grow stronger from angry young men who fight for something they see that the west wants to attack.

Integration, better foreigh policy, more working WITH the "good" members of the community to show how we can all live happily is how we create peace. Not more strife.

Dear Dora - you're a bit daft.

Fine. But surely we should fight the same corner for Scientology and The Flying Spaghetti Monster too then?

Muslim fundamentalism was a godsend to the West, when it needed fundamentalists to fight the Russians in Afghanistan in the 1980s. We've also paid it unlimited amounts of money for oil, in Saudi Arabia. The West actually quite likes Muslim fundamentalists, when they're not trying to blow us up.

What we need is a trade agreement with them. They give us oil, fight (and blow up) easterners, maintain the India/Pakistan balance in return, we give them limitless billions and jet fighter aircraft. They don't bomb us, or attack our underground railways. That ought to do it. I'll ring the Foreign Office.

This may be of interest:

No, Islam is not race. Yes, you are still racist m.redflag.org.au/article/no-islam-not-race-yes-you-are-still-racist

MistressMia, your post is so blatantly a list of fabrications, I don't even know where to start. I have been on MN for years but never wished to block a poster, but you my dear, I wish I never had to read the utter racist comments you spout out.

Please do not get sucked in Olive. My Ramadan resolution is to forever ignore mistress' posts and not respond to her ever again.

Op Do you have the same concern about the rise in anti-semitism across Europe

yes I do, I am actually Jewish and have had to warn my children to hide their ethnic origins.

that is a whole other thread!

My OP was in response to having some lovely friends caused serious worry and distress by a nasty and hostile conversation about Muslims in public on a crowded bus.

I take the point that there is much that many people disagree with in the Muslim faith, but that Muslims themselves deserve as much kindness and respect as we all do.

Karbon

Do you feel the same way about Christianity and Judaism?

Karbon - "yes I do, I am actually Jewish and have had to warn my children to hide their ethnic origins."

Ironically, your children are most likely to be in danger of exposing their ethnic origins from the very religion you wish to defend (Islam) and its true believers.

I don't think Muslims want such a vile person as you wordkill to defend them. Islam in the same breath as Nazism?

I see this thread has taken a turn for the worse already.

You cannot mention Islam or Muslims on Mumsnet without this happening.

As for your delightful opinions, wordkill, I am certain you would never say that to a Muslim's face. You're yet another keyboard warrior.

Ironically, your children are most likely to be in danger of exposing their ethnic origins from the very religion you wish to defend (Islam) and its true believers

I don't beleive my children are in any danger from normal "true" Muslims, Wordkill. Quite the opposite really. Normal Muslims and normal Jews tend to understand and appreciate each other pretty well, and both groups of normal people are totally distinct and separate from extremists calling themselves "Jewish" or "Muslim".

My parents live in Stamford Hill in London. (Where there was a recent hoohaa over Jewish women driving) and the Muslims and Jews live side by side. Our neighbours on both side are Jewish. It's an orthodox area and so the Jewish folk don't really talk much to anyone but never any problems. The mosque and synanogue are a few houses away from each other. This is an area wih quite 'strict' Muslims too. Everyone just goes about their business. It's all very boring and normal. No Jews in danger from machete wielding Muslims sorry to report

Yanbu. However, this thread is rife with islamophobic comments so I doubt it can easily be challenged in general society.

I live up north and the Muslim bodies here have a huge presence when it comes to denouncing acts of terror committed in their name. For some reason these demonstrations and public declarations never make it to the front pages of the Daily Mail.

Last year I witnessed a young Muslim mum being spat at in the park. She was with her kids and I will never forget the look on her and her kids faces. All venom must be challenged (including the vile rantings of mistress Mia and word on this thread). There does seem to be move towards demonisation of Muslims which has become societally accepted and that is very very frightening for all of us as it takes us back to ww2.

I dont believe in religion so no, I don't think I should stand up for it at all.

This truly happened the other day on a bus that my friend was on.

Someone was eating a sausage roll and was actually made to get off the bus!

The predicted opprobrium from Allah's adherents didn't take long to emerge.

Also unsurprising is the lack of engagement in answering the critics.

Olive could you specify exactly which parts of my post are racist and fabrications ? And while you are at it, answer Gemauve.

It's interesting that my posts always illicit a much stronger response than that of other posters who are frequently far more blunt. I suppose the reaction is to be expected considering the hate that Islam has for those who exercise free will and choose to reject it.

The reaction that I get leaves me in no doubt that the muslim posters on this site see nothing wrong with the Sharia mandated death penalty for apostates.

If you think otherwise please come on to tell me how and why you continue to follow an ideology that does advocate that.

This is what amazes Islam's critics. Millions, nay billions of decent non- extremist muslims the world over maintaining blind adherence and devotion to an ideology every bit as fascist as discredited political ones.

It's also why increasingly non-muslims are verbally turning their wrath on everyday muslim and telling them to step up to the plate and take responsibility for the heinous actions committed in the name of Islam. You are giving tacit support to the faith -the faith from which the terror takes it's inspiration. If you don't agree with the actions then you need to find a way to reform Islam, although I really don't see how this is possible when there is so much reverence for it's founder who's conduct was far from exemplary and who today would be at the top of the global terrorist list.

Islam has bugger all to do with the misogyny, lack of freedom, ignorance, arrogance, mindbendingly blatant xenophobia that is commonplace in countries where Islam is predominant.

Beheadings have nothing to do with Islam, neither does covering up women and girls, sexually harassing and assaulting them if the dare set foot outside alone or in groups.

This is the society of these lands, and they use the religion as a weapon to perpetuate their barbaric control over women. Rights of women as described in the Koran have been interpreted and reinterpreted to remove them and undermine their freedom.

The only time I have seen routine violence against women condoned and commonplace, where even women wearing the full cover were stripped of their robes AND sexually assaulted was in Egypt.

I can't talk for other countries, I did however see similar traits in Morocco.

Flaming sharm isn't Egypt, ordinary Egyptians aren't allowed there, expat compounds protect high ranking foreigners, and you just live in a golden cage designed to cushion you from the reality of the country. They used to close roads for hours, confine everyone to their homes with snipers on our building roof if Mubarak or susanna were in our area. They'd resurface and paint roads too. He never saw the country he ruled, or the people of his country. He lived in a make belief land.

The deliberate lack of organised education, designed to keep large and rapidly growing populations stupid, has allowed the idiotic beards to fill the void, spreading their agenda and using a religion as the big stick to force their warped ideology through.

It's all about power and control, God doesn't exist in the equation.

Just like the daily mail and the ukip lot, if you Bang on about shit for long enough, you'll get some that'll fall for it. Over time their ignorance becomes fact to them and they start to believe they are right, everyone else is wrong.

I wonder if the answer is excommunication? I have no idea if this is viable or understood.