to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

But surely the definition of a phobia isn't just a fear, but an irrational fear? So worrying about a group of perfectly ordinary muslim youths seen around town could well be considered phobic, while taking fright at a group of religious police (who you know to be capable of violence) probably isn't?

I suppose it's all relative. The US has dropped billions of dollars of ordnance upon them and Iran, with mixed success, seems to be making strides in the world by combating it (Sunni extremism) not to mention the vast strides the kurds are making. They never could have expanded their territories thus far, without ISIS and US air power. At some point, doesn't Al-Baghdadi have to sit down and say to himself, OK, look, I'm the new caliph, after about 200 years. But, it's all going tits up?

so the crux of the issue is this, can all these issues about IS, beheadings, jehad, violence, homophobia and oppression in the media be separated out from the peaceful British Muslims living with us in our society, who do not in fact have any connection or association with these horrors.

Oh god. Another thread about Muslims. This will get ugly fast. I appreciate what you're trying to do OP but this is not going to go well.

I am Muslim. I am categorically not going to apologise/shout out/feel shame for the actions of ISIS or any other Islamic terrorist group. It is not my job to say ooooh I'm so sorry about this. I as a Muslim feel so bad blah blah.' Not doing it sorry.

Dozens and dozens and dozens of Muslims leaders/imams/groups have decried ISIS so it's BS to suggest otherwise.

Nobody has to like Islam, you can hate the religion that's fine. But to me Islamaphobia is things like those women who pulled off a woman's hijab when she went to collect her kids from school and then when the police came they were pictures laughing with the perpetrators or the woman who got called a fucking Muslim on a bus near me. I don't think that's anything to do with shutting down people's views on Islam. To me, mock Islam all you want, but don't abuse people and don't denigrate their faith in an abusive way. It's ok to say I don't agree with your faith it's not ok to say you are a fucking idiot because you're a Muslim

Comments like 'we aren't allowed to fly our British flag because them Muslims get offended' to me is Islamaphobia because it is such utter irrational BS. I wonder if the Daily Mail has reported such a story which is where the poster got it from. In any case, let's say someone did complain, what's that got to do with the other hundreds of thousands of Muslims who couldn't give a shit about a flying flag?

tellmamauk.org

To me
It's things likes the incidents reported in the link above that are Islamaphobia (or anti-Muslims if you prefer). I can't see how anyone can say that's ok

It is perfectly reasonable to be frightened of Islam and its spread in the West. It is not a race, it's an ideology full of very bad ideas that are incompatible with western civilisation - crucially Sharia which competes for dominance with secular law. More vocal opposition to Islam is to be welcomed not condemned.

Pyjamas I agree with your post. I don't "like" any religion but I hope I would have the guts to step in and defend anyone receiving abuse such as you describe.

Having said that if the OP called me an Islamaphobe I wouldn't give too hoots.

Two hoots.

scatteroflight - this is all a very different thing to what I am talking about, which is just general nastiness to peaceful individuals born and raised as our neighbours.

Er... I don't hate muslims or any other self-selected group, but I think they're a bit daft, just like I think all religious believers are a bit daft. Does that make me islamophobic?

If so, I think it's perfectly ok to be 'islamophobic' in the sense that it's all a load of nonsense. Why not? I'm perfectly happy to live alongside anyone that believes in a god, but I'm not going to high-five them. My kids go to a church school - there's a certain amount of christian tosh doled out, but I don't mind if the teachers are good people and they care for my lovely children, who I expect will make their own minds up later on. I don't think that makes me a horrible, hate-filled person. And I'm not phobic as in 'fearful', I'm phobic as in non-fucking-plussed. I think it is perfectly alright to ridicule, mock and pick holes in religions - doesn't mean I can't be nice to people who seem to like them.

Yes well that's fine then poppy. The OP isn't talking about people like you and neither am I.
It's about acts of abuse/hate speech/violence/discrimination against Muslims that is prevalent but that a lot of people want to pretend doesn't exist.

If that's the case Pyjamas then the OP is using the wrong language. Which is important. I know the point she is trying to make, but perhaps her thread title should be more along the lines of 'to think we should all take responsibility for not pre-judging perfectly nice people on the basis of their religious beliefs.' Which presumably, 99.99% of the population can agree with.

Islamophobia is so broad as concept as to be meaningless for OP's purposes. I don't even think it is a 'thing'. The fact that I can put myself in the category of Islamophobic (see above) but the OP is also not talking about people like me - well who is she talking about? It is a nonsense term. I wanted to expose that in my post. Hope that helps.

Surely, to have any chance of thinking all religious believers are a bit daft, you'd have to know all religious believers. If you knew lots of religions quite well you could say that you thought the religions themselves were a bit daft, and then give reasons, if you wanted to.

But, there may well be religious believers (like me) who think say, Christian theology is a bit meaningless, but the Christian Church is a good, stable, ethical institution, which does great good (say, a lot more good than David Cameron's government, for example.)

You can try calling me daft, if you like. I rather suspect that you'd soon come unstuck, if you tried. I do find more than a hint of arrogance in some atheist arguments. I think some would do well to be a bit quieter.

What scatteroflight said:

'It is perfectly reasonable to be frightened of Islam and its spread in the West. It is not a race, it's an ideology full of very bad ideas that are incompatible with western civilisation - crucially Sharia which competes for dominance with secular law. More vocal opposition to Islam is to be welcomed not condemned.'

As former chief of defence Lord Richards said yesterday, we are sleepwalking towards a third world war with Muslim extremism.

I fear for my children and think we need to combat it now.

scatteroflight best post of the thread. I live in Saudi. Islam is indeed NOT compatible with western civilisation. Ironically, it would seem that most of those who think it is and long for some sort of multicultural utopia have never actually lived or visited in a predominantly Muslim country. And no, a week all inclusive in Sharm does not count.

No scatteroflight paranoid bullshit.
And Saudi is ONE country. Most Muslim countries are nothing line Saudi.

Islam is a religion that discriminates against women and I think Islam phobia is perfectly justified even just on that basis.
Before you say so does th catholic religion, yes, I am also Catholic phobia and in fact probably religion phobic all together.

There is nothing wrong with disliking any religion or all religion. That includes Islam.

And Saudi is ONE country. Most Muslim countries are nothing line Saudi.

Could you point to the democratic one in which freedom of speech is respected, homosexuals are treated equally and religious freedom for all is enacted? Or, given that's going to take a while, could you point to the one where Jewish and Christian worship is accorded the same rights as Muslim worship is in the UK and women and homosexuals are at least not routinely killed for transgressions of the religious code? It would be nice if the economy were both not completely fucked and not propped up with slave labour, too.

Pakistan? No? Iran? No? Iraq? No? Somalia? No? Qatar? No?

Sorry, could you speak up? I can't quite hear your answer.

Spot on Gemauve

And yet stinkersmum has chosen to live there

What's that got to do with anything? I don't particularly like any religion - where do you suggest I live in that case? We're here for a set amount of time, earning a stupid amount of money, living in a western compound until we repatriate.

Which makes her far more qualified than most to comment on whether Islam and western cultures can co-exist.

Heels, it's one of the many interesting issues here. How can a predominantly female site, many with daughters, not express more concern about a religion which oppresses women.

It genuinely astonishes me that such concerns are slammed as Islamophobia, particularly by many who have only ever lived in the UK, where their equality, comparatively speaking, is absolutely guaranteed.

It genuinely astonishes me that educated muslims, whether they live in Western countries or Islamic ones can continue to follow Islam.

You've had the freedom to read the core texts and critically evaluate it. Over the last year we've had many a dialogue about specific aspects, notably its stance on women and minority rights. The default retort is that things have been taken out of context and that no country is practising Islam properly.

Muslims have never been able to successfully counteract the valid points such as those posted about Islamic countries. Thus the dialogue is instead deflected to Islamophobia, hurling personal insults and false accusations of hating muslims.

Now that I've posted I predict this will go the same way.

Things are changing though. There are increasing numbers of ex-muslims and they are becoming more vocal and more visible, such that some of Islam's previously ardent proponents have left the religion. This tide of Islamic conservatism / extremism that has been allowed to be promoted to young people on campuses and schools without any counter argument is being challenged by those who've been there.

I firmly believe that within a generation or two, to be a follower of Islam will be socially unacceptable at least in the West. The East will take longer, but atheism is on the rise all across the Middle East and other Islamic countries. The Internet has exposed Islam and outed Muhammed, whose behaviour was no different to that of ISIS members today.

Westerners need to be more Islamophobic, not less. There are many people suffering under Islam and the sooner this ideology is eradicated, the better for humanity.

Muslimobobia-ie hatred and fear of muslims, however is utterly wrong

Great posts scatteroflight and MistressMia.

'I firmly believe that within a generation or two, to be a follower of Islam will be socially unacceptable at least in the West'

This sounds hugely optimistic to me but I desperately hope you're right

'There are many people suffering under Islam and the sooner this ideology is eradicated, the better for humanity'

Completely agree