to think we all need to take responsibility for challenging islamophobia

[karbonfootprint]

It is so common and so hurtful to some of our fellow citizens. I don't think any of us should let it pass when we hear it, in private, but especially in public.

Presumably all these people have friends and family who know what they spend their weekends doing. Does behaviour like this carry social opprobrium in the community? Why is it that there are a lot of demonstrations like this, but very few people objecting?

Oh ffs. I give up. Forget it then. You all seem
Convinced that all UK Muslims are secret ISIS supporters and none of us care about what's happening. We are all silent.
Nothing I say will convince anyone otherwise.
Hate Islam all you want. Mock it, call
It evil. Whatever. I honestly don't care.
But don't then pretend that any acts of Islamaphobia are wrong just to show how liberal you are. Just be honest and say actually YOU don't care what happens to us Muslims in our own country.
I'm
Not posting anymore. I'm always lone Muslims voice

'You're acting like Muslims don't give a shit about people dying like you have the monopoly on heart breaking.'

No not true, - but maybe we do want some reassurance from those who understand what Islam is all about, and I think it's best to keep talking and keep discussing - everything!

Koala, no that's anti-Muslim behaviour. Against the individual, akin to racism.

Debating Islam is not.

People don't go shrieking about Christiaphobia when atrocities are committed by Christians. Instead, most people are able to conduct intensive debate around the issue, including the role of religion where applicable, without constantly turning the argument into one where they feel personally aggrieved.

Does that clarify?

Maxxytoe, Im not sure what kind of things you might mean, but my observation is that there do seem to be some cultural differences that are absolutely not intended to cause offence, but are not understood or tge norm and therefore can be perceived as being rude. I dont suppose this does help things in the current climate, and whilst I am not keen on the implications of the term "integration" it would make sense for muslims in britain to be mindful of these differences.

On the other hand it is perhaps hard for you and many others to understand how years, decades even, of being treated offensively, cannot fail to have an effect on how wary one is about other people.

When someone stops me in the street and says "Excuse me ....", its 50/50 (literally) whether they are going to say "Whats the time please", or whether they will snarlat me in front of my children and say "Why the fuck are you dressed like that its fucking disgusting".

After many such experiences I could reasonably choose to look away and pretend I havent heard you. And if you were genuinely going to ask me the time, you would perceive me to be a bit rude or not integrating, but you would have no idea as to the background. So a little more open mindedness and open heartedness is perhaps required on both sides.

To me one of the things I dislike / worry about with islam as a religion is that near enough everyone is very devout, maybe not by Muslim standards but compared to other religions. E.g most Christians generally won't think less of you for sex outside marriage whereas I've only had outright or veiled disgust from Muslims about not being married to my ds father. And I've found they generally treat me worse once they know.

It worries me that people (in my experience Muslims) can believe so heartily in their religion and allow it such a big influence on their life when I cannot get over the negative aspects of the religion e.g Islam stance on women, gays, etc

To me when you choose to believe in something so controversial I think you should expect people to worry that you agree with these views unless you purposely go out of your way to make it obvious you don't. Again it's your right not to have to do this but it's my right then to think you must believe what I think Muslims believe.

To me I have no recollection really of any muslim leaders denouncing acts of atrocities but I have heard the pope apologising for Catholic Church's part in the priest abuse coverup etc. Potentially the reason for my ignorance is media coverage. I am not about to walk into a mosque (as I would be asked to cover up and be segregated) and I am not about to walk up to Muslims I don't know (I have only ever had negative experiences doing this)

Sardine, no that doesnt clarify. Robust debate is not islamophobia. Prejudice which is acted upon, discrimination, witchhunts and abuse are islamophobia. Surely you dont think those things are acceptable, whoever they are directed towards?

NoNameDame.

Yes, well put.

1. 100s and 100s of muslim organisations have publically denounced atrocities commited by muslims. I cannot see how you would not have heard of this. If people are not hearing it then I would have to question the medias inclination to sideline such statements as they are not exactly headline grabbers.

1. There is no figurehead such as the pope to speak on behalf of all muslims

1. I disagree that the controversial nature (in the uk) of some islamic values, means that muslims at an individual or group level should be held to a higher standard than anyone else in terms of speaking out.

1. None of the above points legitimises street level Islamophobia, commonly constituting hate crimes

Noname, I wonder if you would consider approaching a large local mosque or community centre and communicating with them about the possibility of an open day?

'There is no figurehead such as the pope to speak on behalf of all muslims'

Yes that's true - we could do with one.

KoalaKoo Sat 27-Jun-15 14:16:39
...

Quint and others, are you really saying that because some muslims in (mostly) other places commit atrocities, that you feel that public victimisation and vilification of innocent muslims in this country is somehow acceptable?

How do you get that from what I say?

Erm, that is as out of context and twisted as me infering from what YOU say that Christians should expect to be discriminated against and persecuted when they chose to stay in a country which is not Christian in majority. And I guess it is not what you are saying.

Did you read my last paragraph?

I said: "I get that you as a Muslim want to live in peace and not be subjected to any phobia due to you faith, everybody should have that."

Everybody should have that ie Freedom to believe what they want without prejudice and persecution.

How is it that any attempt to point out that Christians are persecuted in Muslim countries is met with "Oh, so you are saying it is OK for innocent Muslims to be vilified?"

Bullshit to that.

Prejudice which is acted upon, discrimination, witchhunts and abuse

These are all utterly abhorrent, whoever is perpetrating the behaviour.

Towards Muslims, I would call it anti-Muslim behaviour and utterly condemn it. I have done so only this morning, in the wake of yesterday's attacks.

I would not call robust debate about Islam 'Islamophobia' as has happened on this very thread.

I just cant seem respect anybody saying hate crimes against Muslims must stop, when they cant speak up against all hate crime against every person of any and all Faiths. It seems they only care about One group, and by doing so are condoning all vilification and persecution of the others.

The problem is that the majority of people are either ignorant, lacking in empathy, or just blatantly does not give a shit about others than their own group/immediate community.

Maybe it would be easier if all religions had ONE figurehead, or leader, and when they see that all the leaders come together and join hands for peace, the pope, the dalai lama, the "muslim world leader", etc.

I probably would to know that's lazy but at least honest, I don't think me and my views are enough to make a difference. I am not in any way condoning violence to anyone in the street (e.g ripping veils off etc) I think that's disgusting and when I see stupid British first, etc and obvious propaganda about schools having to cancel Xmas plays etc I challenge it as I see that as obvious discrimination directed at rallying discontent to Muslims.

But again I really don't think most Muslims would really strongly have a go at the young Muslim lads who call me a white slut pig (they used the common Muslim phrase that I was told by one Muslim I used to work with, kafir or something) or at least they don't seem to do it publicly (again maybe Muslims are just a lot more private, that's the impression I get for some reason)

Also I do think belong to that group means you have to work to differentiate yourself from the obvious weirdos within a group. I have seen it happen here on MN, abortion is a very personal opinion but I've seen pro lifers come out and try and distance themselves from the very extremes prolifers (e.g mum should be forced to give birth even if it will kill her types) and I myself would want to differentiate myself if here was risk people would associate me with such an extreme group so I can't understand why Muslims as a whole don't. Maybe they did but it's happening too often now and they feel like that's taking over their lives with I can sympathise with but again I think the best solution to get people in general to understand that not all Muslims are terrorists is for all people (Muslims and non Muslims) to denounce this atrocities as evil and not true Islam)

That's meant to say - I probably wouldn't I know that's lazy

to be fair though my sympathies go to people who have been beheaded/murdered etc in the name of Islam

Oh and also the thousands of young girls who have been groomed and raped by Muslim gangs
These people are the real victims

100s and 100s of muslim organisations have publically denounced atrocities commited by muslims.

The Muslim Council of Britain openly demanded the murder of a British novelist. Why do I believe them now when they claim that they didn't really mean it?

Actually, yes, that made me think.

What about my Muslim neighbours? The wife is really nice and we always stop to chat when we see eachother. Her husband does not even acknowledge me, he does not say hello to me, he does not nod at me, I do not exist when we meet every morning outside our houses to take our children to school. What does that teach his sons? What is he signalling to my sons? Here is a man who just CANNOT bring himself to nod at a female neighbour. What have I done to him, other than being the wrong gender? He is perfectly happy to chat with my husband!

I did not really give this much thought until this thread.

Actually OP, if you want to be responsible and deal with islamophobia, start small, and ensure everybody embraces the community spirit and the neighbours where they live, let everybody be good examples, and make friends regardless of gender, faith or sexual orientation. Let your children play out with the neighbours children, regardless of their ethnicity or religion. That would be a good place to start. Let it be mutual. Dont just expect everybody to accept Muslims as they are; ensure that Muslims also accept everyone else too.

If I went around calling, say, my black neighbours "niggers" I would get arrested and I would find myself ostracised from polite society.

However, the word "kuffar" is routinely bandied around to refer to all non-Muslims, which has roughly the same level of contempt and distaste. That goes completely unremarked, and we are expected to just suck it up.

Quint i agree completely with your last post, the least all of us can do is make our own small effort in our own communities. Regarding your neighbour, if it is cultural then it is because men and women generally dont mix so it wouldnt occur to him to interact with you . Why would you assume its because he thinks less of you? This is a complete myth. If it is done for religious reasons then I would imagine it is out of respect for you and your husband. This might make no sense to you, but you could assume it is his way of being polite?

'This might make no sense to you, but you could assume it is his way of being polite?'

This is good discussion, you see, I wouldn't have assumed that. I would have assumed he had a superiority complex. These are how suspicions begin!

KoalaKoo that is not how we operate in this country,
This is why there is such a big divide because certain religions dictate men and women cannot mix
Women aren't seen as equal to men in Islam, so sorry but he probably does think less of Quint let's not sugar coat things