To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.

[QuestioningStuff]

Posted before about my pregnancy. I am having a termination today. This is not a decision I've made lightly.

I've arrived at the clinic and there is a middle aged man and his young teen son standing outside with camp chairs and flasks. Putting up awful pictures and signs. Trying to hand out leaflets.

I think women who do this are also scum but how on earth could a man think he has any right to do this? Turn up at a place where women are at their most scared and vulnerable and try to bully them?

It's really really upset me. I hate them so much right now.

I want to go and tell them exactly what I think of them but don't think that would be helpful at this time.

I've seen a "pro life" protest outside a clinic not far from me. Although I am pro choice, it was nothing like described by some on here. It was a group of churchy men and women, most were middled aged or older, with folding chairs who would hand leaflets with a smile to those going in. Nothing vitriolic or harassing at all. A peaceful protest. Not one I remotely agree with but that's not really the issue.

Now I appreciate some women might have been upset, but many won't have been remotely bothered, and no one had to even take the leaflet.

I'm sorry if this pisses on the fireworks of those who claim these people are all vicious bullies. That certainly wasn't the case at the protest I witnessed.

Bertrand. Yes my mum felt the same when she put my 98 year old grandma in a nursing home after living with her for 30 years. No-one blames you or her, just as no-one blames women who have abortions. It's sad all round.

I witnessed a protest outside a clinic once. The 'protesters' were holding up graphic images of aborted foetuses. A few men and some children among them.

Totally and utterly vile behaviour, in my opinion.

The men get a special kind of contempt from me, I have to say.

The Catholic Church has a disgusting record in it's dealings with women and children for centuries and it's not alone of course.

TTWK but why should they be allowed to sit outside a clinic and hand out leaflets? Why? Why not do it outside council offices or parliament.

And yes I wouldn't see that as harassing and intimidating and I would probably tell them to fuck right off if they handed me a leaflet but my teen dds most definatly would if I wasn't with them and I imagine so would many young women in a vulnerable state.

Surely you can see that? Really?

Fizzy- but if it was the right decision, why did she feel sad and guilty?

But Fizzy you fail to see that as complicated as it was for Bertrand the unwanted pregnancy is a totally different matter.

You sound compassionate. Surely you can see that it's quite ok for an adult woman to decide what is best for her body and life without help from random people leafleting in the street.

Don't you think women should have bodily autonomy just like men? Do you think a clump of cells should have rights over a woman? Do you think your view is more valid than another woman's?

Sorry to clarify you see one area of life as complicated but not unwanted pregnancy? You see that as cut and dried? Not trying to get at you but just trying to fathom the thinking.

I have never met anyone who is anti abortion in RL so just curious.

only 7.9% of maternal deaths were attributable to abortion

Let's think about that. Some minute fraction will have occurred in the course of legal should-be-safe abortions: no surgery is 100% without risks. The rest occur in the course of illegal abortions done by methods and under conditions that none of us, female or male, care to think about if we don't have to.

I don't know how many was 100% because I could not find the article in the page fizzy linked to - but however many 7.9% was they were lives thrown away, by laws made mostly, I make no bones about it, by men, although enthusiastically supported by many women.

Frankly, how anyone can use the word "only" about it defeats me.

Look I am typing one-handed here with a baby! Of course any women dying thanks to abortion or any maternal cause is a tragedy. Point was about accuracy of figures.

But going into a discussion about the Catholic Church is irrelevant to the fact that this charity does a lot of good work as in fact do many other religious charities.

For many women, these charities are the last chance saloon and the only time they get the chance to discuss all options.

There's maybe a debate to be had about turning clinics into flashpoints but as someone said its not about evil people who hate & harass women and should be banned.

There's always another side.

Bertrand. She felt sad and guilty because she had made a promise to her mum not to put her in a home.

My mum worked in a terrible one in Toxteth in the '60s & vowed never to put her parents in a home. It got to the stage where my gran was doubly incontinent, largely immobile and flooded the house when a bit forgetful thanks to a UTI. My dad was recovering from a heart attack, my mum was 71 and couldn't cope plus my grandma was very stubborn and uncooperative.

My mum felt she was breaking a promise. Hence the sadness & guilt.

TTWK but why should they be allowed to sit outside a clinic and hand out leaflets? Why? Why not do it outside council offices or parliament.*

Because we live in a country where you can peacefully protest outside the venue of the place where the thing you wish to protest about takes place. And that's how it should be. Of course you can also protest outside the council offices.

Would you be so anti a protest by animal rights activists outside a lab where the animals were being experimented on? It may upset the men and women who work there. And often the protesters have posters with graphic pictures of animal experimentation. Or protesting outside a nuclear base with graphic posters of Hiroshima?

I guess a lot of people would have no problem with such a protest because they agree with the cause.

And therein lies the problem. You can't ban protests you disagree with and allow the ones that you do agree with.

So no-one has any place giving a woman a leaflet saying "we can help you, are you sure?" outside an abortion clinic?

I'm not with the aborted foetuses people. I lost a baby to a missed miscarriage and had to walk past those images every day. I spoke to them about it and they were utterly unrepentant. But they just stand there with the banner, from what I see and offer leaflets. They don't harass.

It's not a good tactic. It confirms pro-lifers as haters and makes women run into the haven of the abortion clinic. But not every vigil is like that. There's one group who stand outside a hospital at a time when they are closed so as not to intimidate women. Is that ok?

Yes. I've just read some of it. The section on the risks of abortion, which women need to know to make up their minds, is errr, novel.

Ah, so the people standing outside Whitfield Street are from the Good Counsel Network.

Taking the stance that 'over 70% of women say that their decision to have an abortion was instigated by somebody else'.

Only ever seen them thrust leaflets into the hands of women leaving the clinic in a distressed state. Debatable if you can call that helping somebody.

I maintain my original position - if they really, really cared about the value of human life they would be helping the thousands of adults and children abused within and by the authority of the Catholic Church and campaigning vehemently to stop the endless cover ups, back turning and turning a blind eye to the appalling abuse that continues within the church.

From the Good Counsel website:
The decision to abort carries serious risks to the Mother’s health. Psychologically, a woman may experience post-abortion syndrome (P.A.S.). This is a type of post-traumatic stress disorder which is well documented in the USA but largely ignored in the UK. P.A.S. can manifest itself in many ways. Women may suffer many different symptoms ranging from guilt, grieving and mourning to despair and suicidal impulses, from a desperate need to have a "replacement baby" to abuse of her other children, thwarted maternal instincts and (sometimes multiple) repeat abortions. One of the "classic" symptoms of P.A.S. is annual bouts of illness and/or depression around the time of the baby’s death date, or at what would have been his/her birth month. Physically, there are many threats to a woman’s future ability to carry a pregnancy to term. Miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies and sterility are often reported following abortions. Damage to the cervix, infections and heavy bleeding are common complications. How can a woman make the decision to abort without this information?

Yup. that's the section I was referring to Gideon.

But they just stand there with the banner, from what I see and offer leaflets. They don't harass.

They wear cameras and film women entering and exiting clinics. They are confrontational. Abort 67 are particularly good at this.

Where's the section on risks on carrying on with an unwanted unplanned pregnancy

self harm, suicide malnutrition of existing children, or shall we over look those and many many others in the name of just ensuring they are informed about the procedure.

Fizzy
Thanks for that. I'm pleased you were able to confirm my account, given that the other posters here seemed determined to believe that it was a laughable fairy story.
I was taken aback by the posters who said that these women I talked to would have been entitled to benefits/housing assistance/childcare etc. They were not. In fact they were facing complete destitution with no access to public funds of any kind. The only thing they could get for free was an abortion.
I fail to see how anyone with an ounce of insight or compassion could claim that opting for an unwanted abortion in such circs is an exercise of "choice"

They seemed unable to register the fact that it was in fact the anti-abortion people, not the ( soi disant) "pro choicers" who gave these women the support they needed in order to be able to exercise their choice

If Good Counsel cared so much about the welfare of children, they could campaign for a thorough investigation and enquiry into the extent of child abuse carried out by priests and leaders within the institution that they're affiliated with.

They could insist that the perpetrators are brought to justice and offer help, support and a sincere apology to the victims of that abuse.

Any organisation that purports to care about children should, in my view, think very, very carefully about who and what they are associated with.

There is no evidence (or even suggestion) on Good Counsel's website that any support or assistance is extended beyond babyhood, or that the 'accommodation' offered is long-term.

x-post twofingers

This hypocrisy makes me utterly detest the Catholic Church.

I was taken aback by the posters who said that these women I talked to would have been entitled to benefits/housing assistance/childcare etc.
They were not. In fact they were facing complete destitution with no access to public funds of any kind. The only thing they could get for free was an abortion.

Are you talking about the UK? Are you really claiming that the state offers no assistance with benefits, housing or childcare?