To think men have no right to stand outside abortion clinics and do this.

[QuestioningStuff]

Posted before about my pregnancy. I am having a termination today. This is not a decision I've made lightly.

I've arrived at the clinic and there is a middle aged man and his young teen son standing outside with camp chairs and flasks. Putting up awful pictures and signs. Trying to hand out leaflets.

I think women who do this are also scum but how on earth could a man think he has any right to do this? Turn up at a place where women are at their most scared and vulnerable and try to bully them?

It's really really upset me. I hate them so much right now.

I want to go and tell them exactly what I think of them but don't think that would be helpful at this time.

I'll come back later when children are asleep and you're all less angry.

Ah, the favoured tactic of someone running out of steam. Accuse those talking passionately about something important of being 'angry'

What's not compassionate is telling a woman "yeah you probably would be a crap mother & your baby will have a terrible life". Talk about validating despair.

So who's done that, fizzy?

If you assert those WHO figures are incorrect, perhaps you could point us in the direction of a reliable alternative source that says otherwise.

So a termination is a serious thing then. Why?

Unable to have a baby or don't want to? There are some women I imagine who feel backed into a corner re the choice but for many it is a choice, some choices are made on circumstances,maybe financial or health issues for woman or fetus and some just don't want to be pregnant or have a child.

I don't see abortion as good or bad,I see it as necessary thar women have access to it if they so choose.

Even if you eradicate poverty, could deal with all physical and mental health issues etc, eradicate rape, abuse and we lived in an idyllic world of no suffering women would still want abortions, and that's fine as we are entitled to bodily autonomy.

I too would love to know this charity, I have Googled and not had much luck.

Protectors don't need to pray outside a healthcare centre, even if they don't aim to intimidate they still are, if they truly cared they would pray elsewhere and do work to support women through refuge, rape crisis etc any number of charities they could support.

Is anyone else beginning to suspect that this charity might not actually exist?

Either that, or it's a very, very shy charity that would prefer not to actually advertise its services.

So a termination is a serious thing then. Why?

Oh here we go. The implication that people have terminations for frivolous reasons...

No. I think it is a cunning plan. Why is it serious if it is so neutral?

Be angry that women are put in a position that they feel unable to have a baby and abortion is their only option, then work backwards.

I can't feel angry about women who feel that they cannot have a baby who will be severely disabled and who, if they live, will live a life full of pain. Sad yes, angry no.

I can feel very angry indeed about women who are made pregnant through rape and feel that they must terminate for that reason, but it is the rape that I am angry about. Yes, of course we need a society where rape doesn't happen, but unless and until we can ensure that - which, face it, is not going to happen overnight - then, again, I can't feel angry that abortion is available to the victims of rape.

And yes, I can also feel angry about all the other reasons women may feel the need to terminate, whether it is financial difficulties, their own health problems, the worry that they will be unable to care for their existing children if they have another child or whatever; I suppose what that comes down to very often is the fact that there is no 100% reliable contraception method other than total abstinence, which again is not going to happen. But, fizzy, what do you suggest we do about all these issues, and how do we deal with the problem of unwanted pregnancies until someone has waved a magic wand and taken all these difficulties away?

Last year, the Lancet published a new analysis from the World Health Organization that reviewed studies published between 2003 and 2012. They concluded that only 7.9% of maternal deaths were attributable to abortion. www.thelancet.com/action/consumeSharedSessionAction?JSESSIONID=aaaMvQ0VfA_Fd5E08lX3u&MAID=Q%2B%2F%2Fodcl3skXKGgG8tD6Mw%3D%3D&SERVER=WZ6myaEXBLF%2FdY29RpN4fA%3D%3D&ORIGIN=616890570&RD=RD

Previous estimate came from here www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/Sedgh-Lancet-2012-01.pdf

But as I said, it's bedtime and a bunch of posters swearing and snarking because they disagree isn't conducive to participation.

You keep coming back and writing really long posts.

And yet you still haven't named the charity. Which would take one sentence.

Why is that?

I did a quick google and couldn't find the charity fizzy refers to; I did find Life but they don't seem to offer the sort of assistance she describes. It could of course be further down the Google listings, but if so they don't seem over-eager to save lives by spreading the news of the help they offer.

I can't find them on Google either.

And yes some people do feel sad and guilty if they have an abortion. Because sometimes a decision makes you feel sad and guilty even if you know absolutely that it is the right thing to do. Knowing it's the right thing to do does not mean you skip into the abortion clinic singing glad songs and scattering flowers........

That Lancet link goes to the current edition fizzy. Can't find anything about maternal mortality or abortion.

I think we'd all like mothers to be supported to raise their own children, fuzzy. Although many of us would also like women to have autonomy over how many children they have, in what circumstances etc etc.

I see the obligatory story about the pregnant women who was told that her baby was 'incompatible with life' and defied the odds has had a airing.

This women choose to continue her pregnancy. She should also have the legal right to not have continued if she didn't want to.

That's why 'pro-life' is such an oppressive and inaccurate stance.

Fizzy see I am angry because I detest bullies and those who seek to control other people's bodies and choices.

I know it's funny but that's how I feel and clearly so do the vast majority of posters.

I hate people who seek to tell adult women what to do with their bodies and lives.

Hate them.

Pro life is what everyone is unless they are a serial killer!

Pro choice is a normal persons attitude.

Pro control, harassment, vitriol and pro forcing another human being to do what you think is right is another pro all together. It's not pro life at all.

But if it's the right thing to do, why would you feel sad & guilty?

The reason, I suggest, is because you know that you are ending a life or potential life. And that is the knub of the issue that makes it all so difficult.

And those charities. Well actually the one in London is the Good Counsel Network, it's unashamedly Catholic which will make y'all throw your hands up in horror but it's not their style to evangelise or attach strings. Catholicism is about free will not coersion. Trying to convert people in that context would be uncharitable & counter productive. They help women of all faiths & none facing pressure.

Similar is Project Amber in the Midlands and Cardinal Winning in Scotland.

Unless you name the charity it's bollocks isn't it really? Why wouldn't you?

Oh right the Catholic Church with it's fantastic record of looking after mothers and babies/children in general.

Thank fuck we have washing machines or they would be recruiting.

only 7.9% of maternal deaths were attributable to abortion

Oh well, that's all right then . .

"But if it's the right thing to do, why would you feel sad & guilty?"

Because life is complicated. When my mother became old and frail I made the decision that the best place for her to live was in residential home. I felt incredibly sad and guilty that I could not have her to live with me, but there were excellent reasons and it was the right decision. I still feel sad and guilty about it, and she's been dead for 3 years. But it was the right decision.

ok checked it out. it's an anti-abortion charity. but, to give them credit, at least they do offer help to women who want to keep their pregnancies.

betrand

You've all decided that it's control, vitriol, harassment based on feelings not facts.

As for calling my friend's daughter obligatory! She probably won't survive beyond 20 without a heart transplant. But her life is not one long round of pain, misery and sadness either which tends to be what the drs give you. A worst case scenario.

Claiming that only one viewpoint is normal and expressing hate of others, isn't that as bigoted and intolerant as the attitude that you claim to hate?

Oh so only 8.9% of maternal deaths are a rsult of abortion. Ah well, if you put it like that, that's OK!

And yes, I reserve the right to throw my hands up if you are honestly holding up the Catholic church as a totally unbiased and compassionate resource for women. Because quite simply it is neither of those things.

Take the example of Ireland. The Catholic Church has a really appalling record in their dealings with women with unwanted pregnancies. On that basis alone I resserve the right to allow my eyes to roll out of my head at your glowing praise of a Catholic charity in this field

I don't care if they are wingless angels they still have no place trying to chat to women and basically advertise their services outside an abortion clinic.

They have an agenda and that's why the op was so slow to name them.

They should advertise their help and services in the usual way but not outside clinics